What are your thoughts on Henry Armstrong?

TBooze · Dec 1, 2008

janitor said:

To be fair that would have been an alphabet title.
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Beat you to the correction; and the actual term is 'alphabet crap'. Alphabet title seems almost legitmate.

PowerPuncher · Dec 1, 2008

janitor said:

1. Being technicaly superior to Armstrong is easy. Being more effective is another matter altogether.

2. Also it is one thing to compete through the same weight classes and quite another to establish lineage in them.

3. Rankings coming up.

4. Not unless it was specified in the contract as being on the line.
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1. I want to hear what Armstrong does better than Duran. Can anyone see Armstrong beating Duran in a head to head? I certainly can't

2. Armstrong is rated so highly simply because he got the right fights against the right people at the right time.

Armstrong's natural weight was around 133-6, he drained down to 126 to take on Sarron, beat the aged featherfisted lightweight Ross for the WW belt and went life and death with Ambers for the LW title. Now can anyone seriously tell me a 130lb Mayweather or Duran couldn't take those 3 fighters consequetively within a year? Ofcourse they would

3. They were without doubt the best Welters, much like Mayweather gets stick for not facing Margarito, Cotto, Williams - Armstrong needs to be called on not facing H Williams, Burley, Cocoa and Cerdan

4. Lineage isn't in contracts today so does that mean lineage doesnt pass when a linear champ loses?
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janitor · Dec 1, 2008

PowerPuncher said:

1. I want to hear what Armstrong does better than Duran.

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Nothing, just more of it.

Can anyone see Armstrong beating Duran in a head to head? I certainly can't

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It would certainly be on the cards.

2. Armstrong is rated so highly simply because he got the right fights against the right people at the right time.

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No because he won them.

Armstrong's natural weight was around 133-6, he drained down to 126 to take on Sarron,
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Compared to fighters of Durans era that was nothing.

Are you telling me that Armstrong would have had any trouble making featherweight in the 80s using the type of methods available to Hearns?

So in that sense even if Duran does beat him he is a lightweight beating up on a natural featherweight.

beat the aged featherfisted lightweight Ross for the WW belt
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Ross was himself a pound for pound great and certainly the man to beat at the time.

and went life and death with Ambers for the LW title. Now can anyone seriously tell me a 130lb Mayweather or Duran couldn't take those 3 fighters consequetively within a year? Of course they would

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Yes I can seriously tell you that.

What makes you think that they could even function as fighters to Armstrongs schedule let alone win these fights?

Look at the number of fights Armstrong has and the time between them. That is what separates the men from the boys.

How is Duran going to make featherweight in his own day let alone on a same day weigh in?

3. They were without doubt the best Welters, much like Mayweather gets stick for not facing Margarito, Cotto, Williams - Armstrong needs to be called on not facing H Williams, Burley, Cocoa and Cerdan

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Why should he have faced these men?

They were around the lower end of the rankings at this point and did not break to the top untill after Armstrong had lost the title.

4. Lineage isn't in contracts today so does that mean lineage doesnt pass when a linear champ loses?

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In that period the lineage was liked to a specific title and that title was only on the line if the contract said so. Period.
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My2Sense · Dec 1, 2008

Sweet Pea said:

Should've held 4 titles simultaneously if he would've been rightfully awarded the decision over Garcia in their MW title fight. Truly amazing when you think about it.
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4 undisputed titles from featherweight to middleweight would be arguably the greatest feat in boxing history.

EDIT: Actually, 3 undisputed titles and one partial title. But still hugely impressive IMO.

janitor · Dec 1, 2008

TBooze said:

Beat you to the correction; and the actual term is 'alphabet crap'. Alphabet title seems almost legitmate.
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He might have been recognised by Ring Magazine though!

PowerPuncher · Dec 1, 2008

janitor said:

1. Nothing, just more of it.

2. It would certainly be on the cards.

3. No because he won them.

4. Compared to fighters of Durans era that was nothing. Are you telling me that Armstrong would have had any trouble making featherweight in the 80s using the type of methods available to Hearns? So in that sense even if Duran does beat him he is a lightweight beating up on a natural featherweight.

5. Ross was himself a pound for pound great and certainly the man to beat at the time.

6. Yes I can seriously tell you that. What makes you think that they could even function as fighters to Armstrongs schedule let alone win these fights? Look at the number of fights Armstrong has and the time between them. That is what separates the men from the boys.

7. How is Duran going to make featherweight in his own day let alone on a same day weigh in?

8. Why should he have faced these men? They were around the lower end of the rankings at this point and did not break to the top untill after Armstrong had lost the title.

9. In that period the lineage was liked to a specific title and that title was only on the line if the contract said so. Period.
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1. Duran had a very output himself
2. I can't see it
3. No he was lucky to get Sarron, Ambers, Ross for those belts and not Pep for the FW and Burley for the WW.

If Robinson got a shot at the LW, WW, MW champs consequetively he could have taken them.

4/7. You do realise Duran fought 126 and below 15times compared to Armstrong who fought 13times at 126 or below. Durans win over Marcel at 126 is as good as the Sarron win.

Even if the likes of Duran did have diuretics in the 80s, there opponents also had the same advantages, and draining on same day weigh ins was counter productive

5. Ross is a very good win, hes just a very small WW and natural LW. Duran beating Leonard is also a league better than Armstrong beating Ross

6. Yes Armstrong had a load more fights and fought more often, most of them against bums/journeymen. Fighting regularly is what most modern boxers do in sparring anyway. Do you think Mayweather/Duran would have a problem fighting journeymen or even Gatti level fighters week in week out? Both beat Sarron/Ambers/Ross handily

Armstrong wasn't cleaning out the top Welterweights week in week out thats for sure otherwise Burley/Williams/Cerdan/Cocoa Kid would be on his ledger

8. Because Burley/Williams/Cerdan/Cocoa Kid were the best WWs and that was from 1938 on when Armstrong was champ and I'm sure if he was a champ for more than 2years it would have happened but thats part of the problem of HA

9. A technicality and political BS
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TBooze · Dec 1, 2008

janitor said:

He might have been recognised by Ring Magazine though!
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How sweet it would of been to be the Star of the East of three titles and the cubic zirconia of the Middleweights.....

OBCboxer · Dec 1, 2008

Shame the way he went how he did. He died broke, had six diseases and was blind.

Bad_Intentions · Dec 1, 2008

Top 3 for me!

one of the greatest fighters of all times.

Bummy Davis · Dec 1, 2008

top 5 LB 4 LB ALLTIME

WhataRock · Dec 1, 2008

My no1 p4p fighter of all time...

No one will ever achieve what he did again..If there ever was a fighter who "walked the walk" Armstrong is the man.

Stonehands89 · Dec 1, 2008

Too much is made of that MW title fight against Ceferino. Not only was it recognized by one state in the U.S as has been noted, but he had already beaten Garcia 2 years earlier in defense of his WW title. And Henry did avoid Charley Burley about as obnoxiously as Sugar Ray did.
And he ain't beating Duran at 135 or 147.

Nevertheless... top 3 p4p.

WhataRock · Dec 1, 2008

Stonehands89 said:

Too much is made of that MW title fight against Ceferino. Not only was it recognized by one state in the U.S as has been noted, but he had already beaten Garcia 2 years earlier in defense of his WW title. And Henry did avoid Charley Burley about as obnoxiously as Sugar Ray did.
And he ain't beating Duran at 135 or 147.

Nevertheless... top 3 p4p.
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Perhaps it is but the fact remains Cerferino was the legit middleweight champ of the time aswell.

janitor · Dec 2, 2008

PowerPuncher said:

1. Duran had a very output himself

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Asking how Armstrong is better than Duran is a bit like asking how Joe Frazier is better than Mike Tyson.

Presure presure and presure.

3. No he was lucky to get Sarron, Ambers, Ross for those belts and not Pep for the FW and Burley for the WW.

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He was not in any way lucky because the fighters you listed simply wernt in a position to challenge for the belts at this stage.

You cant simply shift their primes back a couple of years to suit your argument.

If Robinson got a shot at the LW, WW, MW champs consequetively he could have taken them.

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Coulda woulda shoulda.

Armstrong did.

4/7. You do realise Duran fought 126 and below 15times compared to Armstrong who fought 13times at 126 or below. Durans win over Marcel at 126 is as good as the Sarron win.

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The point is that he did not establish lineage at that weight.

Armstrong did.

In order for Duran to match Armstrongs acomplishment he would have to either have won the lineal title at featherweight or beaten Marvin Hagler for the middleweight crown.

Dose that help to put it in perspective.

Even if the likes of Duran did have diuretics in the 80s, there opponents also had the same advantages, and draining on same day weigh ins was counter productive

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5. Ross is a very good win, hes just a very small WW and natural LW. Duran beating Leonard is also a league better than Armstrong beating Ross

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That might be the case but it is just one win.

It is their overall resumes we are comparing.

6. Yes Armstrong had a load more fights and fought more often, most of them against bums/journeymen.

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Obviously you have made that assumption without even looking at the facts.

Fighting regularly is what most modern boxers do in sparring anyway.
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If you cant apreciate the diference between sparring regularly and boxing regularly then you are in denial.

Do you think Mayweather/Duran would have a problem fighting journeymen or even Gatti level fighters week in week out?
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We cant know since they didnt subject their bodies to that kind of regime. You dont know either if you are honest with yourself.

Both beat Sarron/Ambers/Ross handily

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You cant award them wins over these fighters outside the ring. They have to actualy lace up the gloves and prove it.

Most of your argument is based on what you think they coulda shoulda woulda done. That just dosnt cut water.

8. Because Burley/Williams/Cerdan/Cocoa Kid were the best WWs and that was from 1938 on when Armstrong was champ and I'm sure if he was a champ for more than 2years it would have happened but thats part of the problem of HA

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He probably would have met them if he had been champion longer but a fighter with Armstrongs style and schedule is always going to be a candle who burns brightly and breifly.

9. A technicality and political BS

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Reality.
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RNONV · Dec 3, 2008

I truly think his feats are extrordinary in any era. Easily top ten P4P.

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