What boxers did Rocky Marciano consciously and deliberately duck, if any?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by ThatOne, Feb 18, 2022.

  1. Liston73

    Liston73 Active Member banned Full Member

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    You didn't leave one word out, you made a FU and now want to pretend you unintentionally ommitted a word.There's a lot of insecurity evident here and its not coming from me.
    Suze, I've been polite,and complimentary to you throughout all our interactions,it's dissapointing you haven't the maturity to reciprocate in kind.I had thought better of you .
     
  2. Liston73

    Liston73 Active Member banned Full Member

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    See my post above
     
  3. Jason Thomas

    Jason Thomas Well-Known Member Full Member

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    But why are you making such a fuss about this trivial point. In the first place, the men weigh in hours before the fight. One man may weigh 201 and one 198 in the morning. But if the 198 has just gone to the bathroom and had a major BM, and the other has his BM after the weigh-in, their weights could change by fight time with the 198 lb. man being over 200 and the 201 lb. man under 200. So getting all this worked up about 200 lbs. versus the high 190's is silly. The men are more or less the same size. For example, Walcott fought Marciano at 196 and 197 3/4, but I think he was actually a bigger man than Savold at 200 lbs. or even Cockell at 205.

    The bottom line is that Marciano KO'd bigger men at a higher rate than smaller men. So did Louis. A moving target is more difficult to KO than a merely big target.
     
  4. Liston73

    Liston73 Active Member banned Full Member

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    Conversely why is it so important to include tomato cans and wrestlers in resumes to bolster up Marciano's lack of wins
    over quality big men? Because, let's be honest,that's what all this nonsensical moving of gaol posts guff is about! Some big men move faster than some smaller men, I guess we can agree on that?Cockell was a fat LHVy with a glandular problem which forced him to try his luck among the heavies
    Louis was a walking relic of the fighter he had been.If Rocky's fans weren't so insecure and defensive about Rocky's lack of wins over 200lbs class men,if it "was unimportant to them, "why are they now making such a song and dance about how many 200lbs+ men one of his victims faced? I'm not concerned with how quickly Rocky ko'd his bigger opponents,what does that indicate? I'm only interested in their quality and I think that should be the bench mark in all cases when two men in the same division face off!
    Banging out hapless Humphrey Jackson doesn't get my pulse racing,but Simmons going into the 8th and giving Rocky a real fight including the danger of being stopped on cuts,DonCockell a mobile,punching bag going 9rds, and Johnny Schkor whom Walcott had just iced in1 round going 6rds gives me pause for thought
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2022
  5. Jason Thomas

    Jason Thomas Well-Known Member Full Member

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    On Louis, he had gone back of course, but a "one-handed" fighter? I watched the film of the 2nd Agramonte fight, and it was rights hands which knocked Agramonte down for a nine count. A right hand stunned Savold and set him up for the finishing left hook. Louis didn't have the right he used to have, but he still had one. Louis was coming off eight straight wins. He wasn't the fighter had been, but he was hardly "nothing" either, and in fact never lost to anyone except a man who could be considered the best in the world at the time. There aren't many fighters one can say that about.

    As for the wrestlers in Moore's resume, I posted that you have a valid point.

    Moore was brought into the discussion because he beat the big men posed as guys Marciano "ducked"--Baker and Valdes, as did fellow light-heavy Satterfield, while light-heavy Harold Johnson shut out Valdes but never fought Baker. Going 0-6 against Moore, Satterfield, and Johnson puts Baker and Valdes into perspective.
     
  6. Liston73

    Liston73 Active Member banned Full Member

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    How many rights did Louis throw against Marciano?
     
  7. Jason Thomas

    Jason Thomas Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Whatever. Doesn't mean he didn't have a right. How many did Rex Layne land against Marciano? Layne certainly had a right, but it is hard to be effective with it against a man who fights in a crouch with his arms barricading his chin and who crowds you relentlessly.

    Joe Louis was easily the best over 200 lb. heavyweight in the 1920-1960 era. His losses were only to champions, Schmeling, Charles, and Marciano. One can't say that about the big man competition. Valdes and Baker both lost to journeyman Bill Gilliam. Joe Baksi lost to Ole Tandberg. Abe Simon to Jim Thompson. Buddy Baer to Eddie Blunt. Etc.

    So my take is Marciano beat the best big man out there.
     
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  8. Liston73

    Liston73 Active Member banned Full Member

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    " My right hand don't leave me no more." " I could see the openings but by the time I was ready to take them they had gone" Joe Louis .
    The 37 years old Louis Marciano fought was not,imo the best big man.Neither of us knows if that version of Louis could have beaten Baksi,Baker ,or Valdes I have strong doubts he would have been able to beat Moore at that stage!Yes Gilliam beat Baker,and Baker beat him 4 times! Want to take a look at the journeymen that beat Walcott.Lastarza,Cockell?
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2022
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  9. Greb & Papke 707

    Greb & Papke 707 Active Member Full Member

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    I’ll be honest, I don’t think the rock ducked anyone, say what you wanna about the man but he was legitimately fearless
     
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  10. Gazelle Punch

    Gazelle Punch Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Marciano deserves credit for partially neutralizing his right. He did a great job crowding him and constantly pushing him off balance. Didn’t give him much of a chance at his age.
     
  11. Jason Thomas

    Jason Thomas Well-Known Member Full Member

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    "Want to take a look at the journeymen that beat Walcott, LaSarza, Cockell"

    But no journeyman ever beat Louis, which is my point.

    No one ever "knows" if someone could have beaten someone they didn't fight, but no one "knows" they couldn't either. What we do know is that over his career Louis was far better than these other big men, and they lost to far lesser fighters than he ever did.
     
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  12. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 Officer Full Member

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    why are you making such a fuss about this trivial point?
     
  13. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 Officer Full Member

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    Louis knocked out Valdes in 1 round on March 14th, 1950. Valdes was green but the result still stands

    after Baksi was knocked out by Charles in 1948 he drifted into obscurity fighting tomato cans and never breaking into the top 10 again. The notion you have that Baksi would have been able to hang with Joe Louis in 1951 who had climbed his way back into ring magazine # 2 status…is preposterous.

    As for Baker..Louis and him both beat the same men (Bivins agramonte brion). Seems like it would have been a competitive fight. But how could you pick against them brown bomber whom only lost to Charles and Marciano in his comeback
     
  14. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 Officer Full Member

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    At least this poster Liston gave up on his argument that Valdes and Baker were “bigger” than Louis in 1951 lol
     
  15. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 Officer Full Member

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    surprised you bring up walcott who became heavyweight champion of the world and he beat 4 hall of famers, something Valdes and Baker never came close to.

    Walcott also whipped your boy Baksi like a red headed stepchild