I don't even have him above Barrera and Morales, let alone would I have him in the territory of Pacquiao and Chavez or Mayweather and RJJ. This territory is for people who did absurd things. Granted, same territory where I have people losing far worse than Canelo has or may ever lose, but they also won far greater too, so far. Alvarez's biggest wins are close affairs with Golovkin and Golovkin is simply not very historically significant himself, among people like Hearns and Ross and Moore, who'd be in that area for me. I want someone to sit down and watch Chavez against Camacho and Rosario, then come and tell me Nelo is there. I mean, he's fantastic, and he's better than I thought he would be. He's putting together a great career, I do see that. But is he in THAT league? He's so far away from it, I'd have to list some stupid things that would put him there for me that are not reasonable. Because what those guys showed would've also been unreasonable to suggest they might do until you look back and see they did all of it. I don't even know what I just said. I certainly don't want to justify it if someone were to read it and reply. I don't want to be pressed. I can't handle the heat. I never could. It's why I turned down the job to work with Bayless.
I've already said why I have Hearns higher. He's more accomplished than Canelo in 3 divisions over a wider spread of divisions. Hearns victories over Duran, Benitez, Cuevas and Hill are arguably better than any victories Canelo has, arguably. Hearns has been the highest ring ranked fighter at LMW, MW, SMW and LHW. Canelo has a great victory over Golovkin, but a majority of people scored it the other way. Canelo has done extremely well in his career, but it seems to me, best case scenario is he ends up beating Beterbiev and being seen as the best LHW in the world, which is something Hearns has already done anyway.
Mayweather was completing in his 5th weight division up, and Canelo weighed in his last fight vs Trout 174lbs while Mayweather comes in at 150lbs fight night while competing at 154lbs division. Mayweather had to do something to take away some of the size advantage. Canelo come in at 152lbs weigh in, then 165lbs fight night so Canelo had a 15 lb weight advantage in the Mayweather fight.
Nonsense - the fact there was a corrupt/clueless woman judge who was literally banned from boxing doesn't make the fight a "close majority decision". Everyone who watched that fight saw Canelo lose 10 rounds in an utter mismatch. Anybody viewer in the future who looks back on that fight will see an utter mismatch. You're not fooling anyone with this fight being competitive. And if catch weight losses don't count, then catch weight wins don't count either. So Canelo never beat Cotto or Lara at 155. Erase those from his record. He won a lot of other fights (Angulo, Kirkland, Khan, Lopez) at 155 as well. Strike all those. Not a single member of the ringside media scored GGG-Canelo 1 for Canelo....
The problem is he may have lost all those fights.... For the record I think he beat Lara and Trout, but the losses against GGG and Floyd weren't close.
If Mayweather Canelo was an utter mismatch, then Mayweather wouldn't have praised Canelo so highly after the fight. Several posters last week claimed they had it 9 rounds to 3. No matter how many rounds you gave to Canelo, it was very apparent that the vast majority of rounds were close and competitive. Many of those rounds were debatable, but it's no surprise that most people gave Mayweather a lot of close rounds. Even if you say that Canelo lost 10 rounds, if several of those rounds were close, and Mayweather merely edged a number of rounds, then it's not one-sided, it's just an example of a more experienced fighter winning a lot of close rounds. What happened to CJ Ross over that was shameful. You don't get to re-write history because of what happened to her after the fight. The fight in fact was a close majority decision, as both of the other judges gave Canelo more rounds than you gave to Canelo. I don't care if I'm in the small minority who see this for what it was. You like many others are overrating Mayweather and gave him too many rounds just for being Mayweather. Canelo did very well against Mayweather and if you study the footage it's very apparent. Calling it an utter mismatch is just not based in reality. Catchweight wins count, and catchweight losses count too. But many posters have said themselves that they don't rate catchweights fights the same especially in title fights. When evaluating these, you have to take into account who benefitted from the catchweight and who didn't. The difference between Canelo and other fighters who did catchweights is that Canelo didn't drain fighters. Fighting at 1lb over the limit for non-title fights isn't a problem, and Khan and Cotto demanded the 155 catchweight. If a fighter demands a catchweight then wins via advantages gained from said catchweight, that's different than if a fighter demands a catchweight then loses despite advantages gained from said catchweight. When we're talking about catchweights, we have to identify whether the demand was reasonable given the scenario and if a fighter was put at a disadvantage or not that made it easier for the other fighter to win. And if the fighter who was put at a disadvantage still ends up winning, then really the win should count more since he was at a disadvantage. You're trying to muddy the water here when it comes to catchweights and pretend like every catchweight is the same. You need to do your due diligence and evaluate every catchweight individually so you can credit each catchweight win and loss accordingly based on how appropriate the catchweight was given each situation. That's why the Mayweather win has an asterisk on it. Because he demanded the catchweight and won the fight via the advantage of Canelo being drained. When Canelo beat Khan or Cotto, he wasn't the fighter who demanded the catchweight or benefitted from the catchweight, so that's very different. And when he fought at 155 in non-title fights, no one had to cut weight there so it's not anything that had any real impact on either fighter. As I've pointed out before, there are reasons why the ringside media scored it for GGG. GGG was the aggressor, GGG was expected to win, and GGG outvolumed Canelo. You have to pay close attention to clean punching to score it accurately, as the judges did.
You stating that he lost to GGG doesn't make it so. He never lost to GGG, lets get that straight right off the bat. It was plainly obvious that both matches were very close. If you thought GGG won either fight or both, that's your opinion but you tell on yourself by then taking it one step further and arguing that they weren't close. That puts you into the small minority, as most people even though who argue GGG deserved victory recognize how close those were. As far Canelo vs Mayweather, it wasn't as close as either GGG fight, but it was a lot closer than you're acting like it was. But regardless, the catchweight puts an asterisk on the win by Mayweather because it helped Mayweather win. No one would have given Canelo any credit if he beat GGG at a 158 lb catchweight. So why would anyone give Mayweather credit for doing to Canelo what GGG's fans were so opposed to when a catchweight was being talked about? Why would anyone use this catchweight-induced loss to the P4P #1 at the time when talking about where Canelo should rank All-Time? If anything given the catchweight situation and difficulty of opponent, it should only enhance Canelo's resume when it comes to his ATG status. So when we're evaluating how a loss should hurt a fighter when it comes to a fighter's ATG status, you can't ignore the catchweight and the impact that it had on Canelo vs Mayweather. The fact that Canelo was at an unreasonable disadvantage makes the loss that much more forgivable. Then on top of that we have posters like you trying to exaggerate how one-sided it was while ignoring the catchweight. Credit needs to be given to Canelo for fighting GGG at 160, no matter how you scored it, the fact that he fought him at the full limit matters. Unlike Floyd who wouldn't do that against Canelo. These factors need to be considered and credited accordingly when we're talking about a fighter's ATG status.
1) Canelo is not even close to Pac 2) Floyd may have lost 4 rounds to Canelo. But he just gave em away. Didnt try. Took a break. And Floyd was waaay above his natural weight and older. 3) I think GGG won 2 very close fights. But regardless, he was way past his prime too. 4) I dont think Hearns is anywhere close to top 20 Even if every fight he won is legit, I dont think there is anything Canelo can do to go top 20 ever short of beating everyone all the way up to Fury lol. I would probably have Floyd around 20. Top 20 P4P fighter ever is crazy rarified air. So the short answer is nothing. But canelo is great and is a throwback.
I made a song for him man: Bring back sugarcane/ Bring back game/ When he in the ring he be/ The king that reigns! All hail Canelo! Awesome ko artist who knocked out Kovalev because he had no punch resistance at that point in his career.
He can stop draining opponents down to catchweights / applying rehydration clauses. It's not like Roberto Duran needed to do those things when he was chasing greatness. Fight and beat Bivol and Beterbiev at 175 without either of the aforementioned things.
I don't recall him doing any such thing as he steamrolled through Super Middleweight over the last calendar year. So stop pretending like he's been doing that when he hasn't. And having a rehydration clause isn't draining an opponent. How about he just defend the Super Middleweight Titles? Bivol has offered to come down to 168, Bivol said he can make 168 safely if given enough time. The problem I see here is that you always want Canelo to have to do everything possible to make it easy on his opponent. Moving up a weight class and fighting much bigger fighters is not easy to do. A rehydration clause is not unreasonable when Canelo is moving up an entire weight class. You can't put rehydration clause in the same category as a catchweight. And you can't call it draining. It's really just a minor inconvenience the next morning after making weight.
I never said that Canelo had drained anyone down to a catchweight or taxed anyone with a rehydration clause in the last year. Reading comprehension is your friend, not your enemy. That's cool if you want to act like Canelo never drained anyone down to catchweights or install rehydration clauses: all it does is ruthlessly reveal your bias for anyone who decides to bump this thread three years from now.
