What changes could Ken Norton have made to fare better against big hitters?

Ken was only really vulnerable early on in fights. As a slow starter, he could have been encouraged to embrace this and been more conservative in the first three rounds.
Fact is, you can't put muscles on chins.

 

Ken was only really vulnerable early on in fights. As a slow starter, he could have been encouraged to embrace this and been more conservative in the first three rounds.
Fact is, you can't put muscles on chins.

 

The inability to fight backing up is the key and then there is of course the absolute ceiling to the resilience of Norton’s chin.

I thought Norton was boxing extremely well against Foreman. Though brief, Foreman did appear a tad disconcerted by Norton’s initial ability to hit and not be hit.

I don’t think Ken could’ve been any more careful or considerate than what he was - he needed sufficient offence to keep Foreman honest otherwise he might’ve been eaten up even more quickly - and Ken did connect solidly with several punches.

It was literally one long right hand from Foreman that caught Ken moving away that started the quick spiral. A combination of chin and style letting Norton down.

Foreman’s executions might not have looked as pretty as some but he could be extraordinarily accurate even though his swings could appear indiscriminate - they often still found their mark flush - as we also saw with Frazier. His follow ups on a wounded Norton shortly thereafter were devastating.

Even a dancing Ali might’ve been caught with that long right - possibly stunned for a nano sec - then back to business as usual. Unfortunately for Ken, it hurt him that much more and whatever cool strategy he was executing beforehand went out the window. Basically, all at sea.

Let’s not forget that Foreman took an absolute free swing with the left on Norton as ref Rondeau? was about to administer a standing 8 count. It was hard shot but Norton took it - not sure why Foreman wasn’t warned let alone penalised for that.

Personally, I don’t know that Norton could’ve changed much to survive the monster punchers - he could’ve reinvented himself as a more defensive fighter but perhaps lose out more, sacrificing offence that actually served in its own right to keep opponents off him.

 

The way he fought, faults and all, seemed to me to have everything to do with his giving super boxers like Holmes, Ali, and Young trouble.

 

There really wasn't much he could have done, other than be somebody else.
I just watched the Foreman fight. I'm guessing that they told Ken to circle and jab, stay away from Foreman. But he isn't that type of fighter. To complicate things, Foreman immediately took away Norton's jab and then started to land his own jab. How did he do that? He started to use what they used to call stops back in the 1920s and before- you know, those long armed moves that would never work in modern boxing- and he started to parry the jab well away from his body. With his height, even if Norton knew how to feint a jab, or how to hook off that feint, he wouldn't have reached Foreman. And Foreman was landing his jab.
I think that he landed a body shot that hurt Norton in the last minute of the first round. I didn't see the punch but all of a sudden Ken's legs got stiff. Maybe he wasn't warmed up enough - he was sitting on his stool for quite some time before the fight started.
Once Foreman started to land his jab and get close to Norton, the fight was over.

 

Great point. Purpose built and styled to give the above guys hell and in fact beat them..

Even if Norton could’ve heavily modified himself to beat Foreman, Shavers and Cooney BUT had to trade off and lose to Ali, Holmes and Young in the very manner the above 3 punchers actually lost, perhaps at the end of the day, Norton’s very style yielded actual performances of greater quality, results and ultimate all time ranking.

 

I had Ali far ahead by the 12th, and he didn't even need it on my scorecards (though he got it either way). A lot of people had Ali the winner as they had the fight coming down to the 12th. Norton needed to win that one 10-8 on my card to even come close to a draw.

 

I have a written interview/book from the time he trained Bowe in which he states Norton lost too many early rounds of Ali-Norton II because he tries to emulate Frazier's approach to Ali.

Will dig it up.

EDIT: My bad. It was a commentary form Ken's biography, Going the Distance.

Eddie Futch: In that second fight with Ali, Ken went out and suddenly decided to fight Ali like Joe Frazier had fought him two years earlier. Ken bobbed and weaved. The trouble was, Ken didn’t know what to do from that position, so Ali won the first four rounds. I finally got Ken going in the fifth round, and he started to come on. By the 11th round I thought he was pulling even, maybe a little ahead. But then Ali, being the great con man that he was, knew that he had to win the last round. He marshaled his strength in the early part of the 12th round and stole the fight with a strong finish. Despite that, I still think Ken won the fight. I think Ken won all three fights with Ali.”

 

Someone who couldn’t take a shot shouldn’t have been fighting that way. He made some progress and was at the point of no return.

 

Against Foreman "my strategy was to act like I was going to go toe to toe, make George load up, back off and counter but when he loaded up I backed up, kept backing and backing and then I stumbled"
Ken Norton

 

Wear a Jousters helmut?

 

Not being able to take shots from the hardest hitters in history disqualifies you from being a pressure fighter?

 

I agree with Futch. You can make a solid case Norton won all 3. The only one that is debatable is the 2nd fight.

 

Def. won the first and third so you only have to make a case for the second fight to unlock the trifecta - I can only say that the second fight could’ve gone either way.

Norton himself def. said he won 1 and 3 but 2 could’ve gone either way.

Strange though, I’ve read some posters here quote Norton as having said otherwise in so far which 2 fights Norton said he def. won - some have said Norton claimed victory for 2 and 3 but 1 could’ve gone either way - that doesn’t make sense and I think they might’ve been confused as to which fights Ken was referring to.

Also, Futch told Norton to play it safe in rd 15 of the rubber, correct?

Not sure what playing it safe was supposed to mean - Norton was never in danger of being KD’d let alone KO’d by Ali over 3 fights and Futch himself said Norton lost the early rounds (as Norton did v Holmes).

Ken could’ve afforded to go out and go for broke in round 15 - they figured he was leading anyway so no harm if he lost round 15 in his efforts (he lost round 15 anyway).

Off the top, was Lyle the only other fighter to face the unholy 3 punchers - Foreman, Shavers and Cooney? Maybe there was someone else?

Funny that Ronnie could deal with Shavers’ punch but then be badly hurt by a single Ali right hand and stopped shortly thereafter.

The same Ali that Norton went 39 rounds with without Ken ever being notably hurt.

That’s boxing and stylistic dynamics for you - and the fact that Ali could rip out an uncommonly powerful punch from time to time - but that was probably more likely against Lyle than the more mobile and evasive Norton.

IMO, Norton was one of the most likeable and genuine guys in boxing - though, I’ve never seen Ali so needled and emotionally reactive as he was during that rubber match - even taking a post round poke at Norton after a verbal between them.

Norton was Ali’s bogeyman at a number of levels.

 

Futch wasn't no longer with Norton by the 3rd fight. Bill Slayton gave Kenny sound advice. He was clearly ahead and the only way Ali could have won legitimately is if Ken left himself open and got knocked out. In round 15 at Yankee Stadium Ali ran the entire round while Norton stalked him. Some Ali fans think that means he won the round. Ali missed jabs by foot or being blocked while Norton took the round by cornering Ali and rocking him with an overhand right. Norton won the 15th round. He didn't even need it.

18 of 21 sportswriters sitting ringside thought Norton won the fight. Keep in mind this is in 1976. Most of those writers by then were Ali loyalists. The old guard had melted away and Muhammad Ali was at the height of his fame and popularity.

One of the major New York papers called it a robbery.