What did Frazier do to be called "Uncle Tom" by Ali?

Have you got the quote and date for where Frazier "started the ****" ?
What exactly did he say ?

 

I'd say the opposite.

The context in which Frazier made a point of calling Ali "Clay" was when Ali had his life threatened and was hated around the country for changing that name.

Frazier ridiculed his stance against the white establishment and Ali ridiculed him for standing on the side of said establishment. That seems pretty logical to me - and I don't think popularity (if Ali indeed was more popular in the US leading up to the FOTC) or lending of money really changes that.

 

I've had posted it in one of these threads. I think it might have been Frazier calling him out after the Folley fight.

 

I think it's funny that so many fall in line with Ali's ego and accept the notion that being called "Clay" (a name he'd be shouting proudly for YEARS) was undoubtedly some sort of horrendous insult.
At worst it was a little disrespectful, and in many case it wasn't even that.

I respect every man's religion, and have known many people to change their names for reasons of religious conversion, but never met a person so arrogant to object so strongly and loudly to being refered to by the name they were always known as by old acquaintances.

Sure, a man like Frazier certainly did continue to call Ali "Clay" because it wound him up, but fighters aren't supposed to bow to each other's egos.
Ali's objections seemed just as much ego-based on based on genuine religious feelings.
He was an all-time ego, a narcissist on par with anyone in any field.

 

Ali crossed the line. Calling Frazier who had darker skin then Ali, and an uncle Tom was cruel and went way beyond hyping a fight. Because Frazier lacked the vocabulary to come back, it stuck to him. This wasn't comedy or show. Ali did it with a serious vibe. Fraizer's children were bullied in school because of this. Those who say don't feel sorry for Joe, should. Ali also said Frazier was a gorilla.

Ali also asked Chuck Wepner to call him that word to promote their match. Chuck refused to do it.

 

Solid post

 

I can't understand that people pretend like it's not hugely disrespectful if someone makes a point out of it, and Frazier clearly did.

I mean if I changed my name just because I didn't like the sound my old one, and someone made a point of calling me by my old name I'd think that person was quite a dick. No if I had changed my name because of deeply held beliefs and someone made a point of calling me by old name...

I mean, if this isn't a big deal why is being called an Uncle Tom a big deal? If belittleling someone's anti-establishment stances (that's been taken at personal risk and costs) isn't a big deal why is it a big deal to call someone a establishement lackey?

I just can't get my head around this way of thinking, actually.

 

I don't mean that Ali's stances concerning the NOI and the Vietnam war necissarly were beyond reproach (certainly not the NOI affiliation), but if you take that route you shouldn't be surprised that Ali fires back.

 

It was just to sell tickets and it wasn’t personal by Ali at all, but of course Frazier didn’t see it that way. Even Wepner talked about Ali begging him to call Ali the N word, since it would help ticket sells, but Wepner refused. Don Elbaum also mentioned Don King using race to get the fans riled up and angry to buy tickets.

“ I remember we had to do a couple of TV things. We were on ‘The Mike Douglas Show’. When we took a break, Ali leans over me and says, Hey Chuck. Do me a favor. When they come back onstage, call me an effing ******. And I said to him, ‘Champ, I can’t do that. I have a lot of black friends, a couple of my sparring partners are black. I don’t even like to use the word.’ He said, No, no, no, we’ll make it look like a grudge match and sell tickets.’ I said, I’m not doing that.

When the host returned to the set, Ali immediately started shouting, “Do you know what he called me? Do you know what he called me?” Wepner had to clamp his hand over his mouth to prevent him from dropping that particular bomb.

“Ali was a promoter, “Wepner says. “He was a great promoter and they were trying to hype the fight. Because even though Inwas ranked sixth or seventh in the world, I wasn’t the biggest name.
https://books.google.com/books?id=QtfgzYbwmL8C&pg=RA1-PA121&lpg=RA1-PA121&dq=Facing+Ali+call+me+an+effing&source=bl&ots=wUN7o7Os3T&sig=ACfU3U3aHON5jg6cxBnvplJ2eM94RLRLUw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjDtK_U_fnoAhVVnJ4KHfLGCJ8Q6AEwAHoECAQQAQ#v=onepage&q=Facing Ali call me an effing&f=false

 

Name calling and trash talking is part of the sport. All sports. Trying to get an "edge" anyway you can is just part of the deal. And no one was better at it than Ali.

 

Frazier's wife and children had to deal with it. The media didn't help Frazier either, they were in Ali's corner. Had Frazier called Ali a racists who was part of a religious group that hates, somehow I think he'd get a massive backlash. But Ali gets a pass somehow?

 

Frazier did help Ali. He gave him money and also lobbied on his behalf personally in Washington. Thats all a matter of record.

 

It doesn't matter much whether Ali is called Ali or Clay, we all know who he is. It doesn't alter anything.
If you talk about P.Diddy and I talk about Puff Daddy or Sean "Puffy" Combs, it really doesn't matter a jot.

But being called an "Uncle Tom" matters. Either Frazier was or wasn't an Uncle Tom.
If you think he was, then, yeah, I can see why you wouldn't see a problem with Ali calling him it.

 

I don't really think in terms of Frazier being an Uncle Tom or not. I don't know if he insisted from the start to call Ali "Clay" just to make noise for a possible showdown (in 1967, when Joe still was relatively unknown) or if he just disagreed with Ali's stances (like he said he did about the Vietnam War) and wanted to belittle them for that reason, but he can't possible have missed that it pissed Ali off big time. So I can't for the life of me feel sorry for him that Ali hit back with Uncle Tom.

I think this whole thing is silly almost beyond belief to be honest. To pretend that it didn't mean anything to call Ali "Clay" when he so publicly had demonstrated on several occasions that it did (first Patterson and Terrell and later Bonavena - Frazier actually pointedly called Ali "Clay" in a phone conversation in the ring just after the Bonavena fight had ended, that one is on Youtube), and then make a whole thing about Ali actually responding to what he clearly found insulting...

Don't know if this is some sort of mass psychosis or people just acting stupid, but I've said my piece (plenty of times) so I'll leave it at that.

 

If I'm reading you correctly, you almost seem to be saying because Ali wanted everyone to suddenly go from calling him "Clay" to calling him "Muhammad Ali", anyone who chose not to do so was being so utterly disrespectful that any response from Ali was a suitable response.

I don't see it like that.
Personally, I think Ali was within his rights to object and to respond, but the whole "Uncle Tom" nonsense (which started with Patterson and Terrell, of course) was an unreasonable response and shouldn't be viewed as anything noble or justified.