What Did Sugar Ray Robinson Have, That Ali Didn't..?

Robinson`s body mechanics were far better, he generated more power than Ali and wa a better finisher, Ali was easier to hit with hooks than Ray, Robi wa a far better body puncher than Ali, Robinson wa durable but Ali had an incredible chin.

 

Oh, also a full, unimpeded, prime of his career

 

Good Fundamentals, and a great punch.

 

Yeah, Robinson was a killer in a way Ali wasn't. In the way that he seemed to want to hurt his opponent no matter what, while Ali only went for blood when he really had to. Robinson was a natural predator while Ali was content to just box his opponent to a fairly painless decision, especially in the 70's.

 

Ali's jab was a lot better. Not close imo.

I also think Ali had the better reflexes and maybe also the better straight right.

A bit hard to say for sure, though, since we don't have much footage of Robinson at his very peak.

 

From a p4p perspective & taking all factors into account, I believe SRR was superior offensively & Ali superior defensively.

I believe the degree to which SRR was superior offensively was greater than the degree to which Ali was superior defensively.

SRR is my #1 P4P all time & Ali my #10. Regardless of exactly where you rank them, they're 2 of the greatest boxers of all time.

 

How was Ali better defensively? Maybe in his first career, certainly not in the second. SRR relied on his height a lot for defense and Ali pulled back from punches a big no-no, but he got away with it early on but it did catch up with him. Neither man was a defensive genius by any means.

 

My comparisons were based on prime for prime.

Well, perhaps I should have specified better defensively as a result of their relative approaches. i.e. Ali was more defensively minded. If I were to paraphrase what I'd guess to be their respective fundamental mindsets, particularly pertaining to their footwork/movement, Ali's would be - "How can I avoid getting hit, whilst being able to land punches myself?", whereas I'd guess SRR's as - "Where can I position myself, where I can unleash blindingly fast combinations?"

The above is an oversimplification & perhaps an exaggeration, SRR was defensively responsible too, but whilst both had fast feet & were excellent at controlling range, prime Ali clearly had the more "don't get hit, then hit when that is assured" mindset, whereas SRR the more "hit & then try not to get hit back, if possible", approach.

Relative to their respective sizes, Ali also looks to have better head movement, better defensive footwork (SRR the better offensive footwork) & better reflexes, to me, though tbf, all the footage we have of SRRx, is likely after he was at his absolute apex.

 

Hmmmmmm. World War 2 says 'Hello'.

Robinson was what 24, 25 when it ended but it did stall boxing, the ability to travel and fight, fights for the title and many men of fighting age just weren't around. His development through those years would have been different with no war.

 

Absolutely he did. But Ali had that untouchable X factor where even what he did wrong was so off the scale good, it rendered fundamentals obsolete. Not through all of his career, admittedly, but for that brief, dazzling spell.

Also, he had that incredible ability to be something different and adapt, again eschewing fundamentals, as demonstrated in Zaire. Put Ray in with a younger middleweight who was as formidable a middleweight as Foreman was a heavy and I can't see even Ray pulling that rabbit out of the hat. Ali also had the edge on Ray on mental manoeuvres.

Finally, Ali fought absolutely everyone in his era - 60s and 70s. He left no Murderers' Row or Charley Burley questions unanswered. Not that I think any of those men would have been better than Robinson but it's to Ali's credit that he has no 'what ifs'. Of course, whether he legitimately beat all of the men he faced is a whole other thread.

 

I think the impression comes from reliance on the jab and his reflexes that gives that impression. Look at who Ali was jabbing with compared to Robinson.

 

Prime Ali was a finisher. Prime SRR was a destroyer.

 

No, it comes from him extending the jab much better and also using it to the body more. And we have footage of Ali against great jabbers like Liston, but for Robinson against LaMotta, Graziano, Basilio and Fulmer weren't really famous jabbers.

 

“No” really doesn’t work in an opinionated debate, neither is a fact. Beating a good jabber doesn’t mean you’re better at jabbing - just like knocking out someone who can punch doesn’t make you a better puncher.

I don’t remember Ali jabbing with Liston. I haven’t seen the fight in years but from memory here Ali was mostly countering the jab more then anything else looking for the right. He ballerina trotted around the ring, threw the 1,2 or played matador whenever Liston tried coming in behind his telephone pole he side stepped. He threw the jab plenty he did have a great jab but if you want to see Ali jabbing with someone watch the Norton fight.

Again I don’t think Robinson understood the punch that much better if it all or maybe less but I just wanted to say the above.

 

Watch it again, he jabbed Liston plenty Especially in the sixth, he won that round with the jab alone. As he did, Terrell, the third best jabber of that era.

Why would one go to a post prime, fairly unprepared Ali against Norton other than to cherry pick an example where he wasn't very successful in the jabbing contest? And I assume you also mean specifically the first fight, when Norton had the most success with his jab.

Granted, the fights I mentioned with Robinson also was when he was getting on in years, but that's because of the lack of footage of Robinson in his 20's.

But it isn't the relative success I'm looking as much as the technique of the jab. Ali extended his better and he also used it well to the body at times.