What does it matter who was leading at the time of a KO?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Saintpat, Feb 14, 2024.


  1. Saintpat

    Saintpat Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    We see this brought up a lot:

    Herold Graham was schooling Julian Jackson before he got sparked …

    Deontay Wilder behind before KO’ing this guy or that …

    Meldrick Taylor was beating JC Chavez before Julio rallied to end it … (this one I get the argument over the stoppage, although I think it was proper, but some argue the scorecard regardless)

    The thing I don’t get is that it’s often used as a slight against the guy who won rather than buoying the loser by saying he fought well before making a fatal mistake.

    So what? Boxing is the sport that has the most decisive finish possible allowed — you can’t end a football or baseball or basketball game on one TD or hit or bucket at any given point along the way. Literally the point of boxing is to either outbox your opponent over rounds OR render him unconscious … so with the latter, what does it matter the path taken to get there?

    You never hear anyone arguing that a pitcher was ahead in the count before giving up a grand slam, that a soccer goalie made a lot of saves before allowing the decisive goal to the other team, that someone blocked Michael Jordan’s shot earlier before he hit the game-winner. But in boxing in certain cases it seems some want to use the scorecard before a KO as a slap at the winner.

    I ask: Would you rather be ahead on the scorecards befor being knocked slap out, or be behind on the scorecards and then land the haymaker to win it?

    (Oddly, in some cases you don’t hear it used against a fighter, like LaMotta vs. Dauthuille or Tate vs. Weaver or Louis vs. Conn — maybe a bit here — or Foreman vs. Moorer.)

    Anyone have any insight into the thought process or psychology of this particular ‘yeah he won BUT …’ way of looking at a knockout?
     
  2. The Cryptkeeper

    The Cryptkeeper Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Good post.

    I find that you do hear it with Foreman v Moorer all the time though. I literally read that it was a “lucky punch” on this forum today.

    There’s no such thing as a lucky punch. And if you win by KO, everything that happened in the fight up until then is irrelevant.
     
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  3. PittSteel

    PittSteel Member Full Member

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    It is because of this exact reason. If other sports had a similar mechanism, the same second guessing would arise. The other sports you mentioned have a fixed time frame in which the competetion is organized, whoever has the most points at the end wins, there is no way to end the contest prematurely.
    But even so, there are still wins that are being questioned due to "luck" on the winning side, or just pure bad fortune on the losing side.
     
  4. Mod-Mania

    Mod-Mania Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I agree, you'll never convince some people of that regarding Hearns-Barkley I though.
     
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  5. West of Hollywood

    West of Hollywood Active Member Full Member

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    If your favored fighter is knocked-out it gives you some consolation if he was ahead on the scorecards. Promoters love it because it sets up a rematch.
     
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  6. wutang

    wutang Active Member Full Member

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    A poster on here gave me a good laugh a few years ago (I wish I could remember who it was). A khan fan was complaining that Khan was schooling Garcia before Bambi legs kicked in and was suggesting Khan could win in a rematch. Someone replied to the effect of " so what? Garcia outboxed Khan so badly in the fourth round that they had to stop the fight."

    Looking at it from that perspective, yeah I suppose it doesn't matter what happened or who was leading before a knockout. A knockout or legit stoppage leaves very few questions as to who the winner is.
     
  7. Glass City Cobra

    Glass City Cobra H2H Burger King

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    People say that to point out if someone is easy to outbox. Wilder vs Ortiz is one of the most glaring examples. People were saying for years that if Wilder can't knock a guy out, it's very hard for him to win a fight. That turned out to be true because we saw how terrible he looks in the Fury and Parker fights.

    However, I do agree that trying to take credit away from a fighter who won by KO is stupid. It has nothing to do with luck. A KO punch is a punch the fighter practiced for days, weeks, years, etc, and he threw it with the intention to hurt the other guy. The way some people type, you'd think knockouts in boxing were like catching the flu or tripping on a banana peel.
     
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  8. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    It doesn't matter in the slightest regarding the outcome of the fight.

    It is still something that you take notice of though.
     
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  9. Seamus

    Seamus Proud Kulak Full Member

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    Plus, any halfway seasoned viewer could tell Foreman was softening up Moorer for several rounds, not winning them on a scorecard but setting up the KO. Much like Marciano v Walcott or Julio v Meldrick.
     
  10. viperzero

    viperzero Member Full Member

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    I’m so glad you used Foreman Moorer and Walcott Marciano.
    Foreman Moorer I think is one of the best examples of a Puncher outsmarting the boxer, while Walcott Marciano I think is the best example of weathering the storm and turning the tables.

    Julio v Meldrick is the best example of the sport of you can do everything right till the last few seconds and loose. Though at least with that one I do understand why someone would say he was out boxing him the whole fight till he got knocked out because he did almost exactly outbox him for 12 rounds.
     
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  11. chaunceygardina

    chaunceygardina Member Full Member

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    A poker player could have the best hand on the table, but still be beaten. The rules be the rules.
     
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  12. The Cryptkeeper

    The Cryptkeeper Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Yep, George threw a number of big left hooks in the 10th that literally straightened Moorer up. This set Moorer up for the straight right that ended it.

    It was a tactical masterpiece. He’d even told Jim Lampley how it was going to happen.
     
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  13. Mod-Mania

    Mod-Mania Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Taylor didn't outbox Chavez, he outworked him.
     
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  14. viperzero

    viperzero Member Full Member

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    Well yes, that’s really more accurate with those very fast hands landing more in every exchange. One of my all time favorite ends of a fight. But I think the basic idea stands.
     
  15. Pugguy

    Pugguy Ingo, The Thinking Man’s GOAT Full Member

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    At the primal level, I “think”, perhaps, that most people would like to see a fight be decided by a KO, the most definitive form of victory.

    When a KO isn’t rendered, the next best option is to defer to subjective scoring of a fight.

    A KO is absolute and irrefutable, so, whether leading in the scoring or being behind, it’s a wholly legit form of victory that can’t be detracted from - again, it can’t be any more absolute than that.

    But it’s still okay to identify and acknowledge come from behind KO victories - it’s part of the perception of the drama. That’s why Louis. vs Conn 1, for just one example, will always be talked about.

    The analysis might also be applied in practical terms - eg - calculating that the victim of a perceived random KO won’t fall prey to same in a rematch, therefore defaulting the outcome to a points decision otherwise - given that the previously KO’d victim was clearly leading in the first fight before the boom was lowered.
     
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