What exactly happened in Liston Ali 2

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by reznick, Sep 6, 2010.


  1. reznick

    reznick In the 7.2% Full Member

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    A book I'm reading, "King of the World", is about Ali's life, up till his exile. THere is vast details about the Liston bouts, and I wanted to share with you guys a summary of what happened to Sonny Liston in the second match with Ali:


    When they signed to fight the rematch, Liston started training intensely. Here is a passage form the book that looks at his training routine for the build-up of the fight:

    "Liston trained for the rematch at a karate and Judo club in south Denver. For the first time since the early days of his career, he seemed determined to prepare himself for a long fight. In the early morning he often drove out to the mountains and ran to the Shrine of Mother Cabrini. He'd run up the 350 steps to the statue of the Sacred Heart and shadowbox there, all alone, breathing the cool mountain air. When it came time to move his camp to New England, Liston set himself up at White Cliffs, a fine old country club near Plymouth Rock with a gold course overlooking the Atlantic. Every Morning Liston ran at least five miles up and down the dunes, and in the afternoons in the gym he went through his exercise routines and sparred. He even worked out with a martial arts instructor to improve his agility. Willie Reddish, his trainer, had been furious with Liston in Miami; he could not bear the way his fighter had dissipated his talent with whiskey and prostitutes. But now Liston was in a monastic mood, angry, focused on beating Ali. Reddish saw a new Liston, or at least the old Liston, the ferocious fighter who had demolished Floyd Patterson twice in less than five minutes, total."

    Right before the fight, Ali was hospitalized for a hernia, and the fight was rescheduled. This was the end of Liston. The physical shape he had gotten himself into was all a waste. And not only was all the time he spent wasted, it also meant that his body would never be able to reach that peak again in time for the rescheduled bout. In front of his wife he played it off cool, joking around at first, but he was crushed. He would mutter to himself all night "That damned fool, that damned fool." Liston essentially gave up trying to train his best. He tried to get back in shape but he was feeling miserable. The camp he was training at was damp and wet. He had never been paid his promised $150,000 he was promised for the first fight. He started going out again, drinking. His hopes of going into the ring in good shape were over.


    On the way to the fight, on the night of, Ali was talking to a reporter. The reporter had asked Ali how he believe the fight will go. Ali did not go on his usual antics about how bad he was going to whip his opponent. Instead, he was serious. He said it would be a strange fight: "It may start out with me not even throwing a punch. I'm just gonna go backwards and Liston will pursue and then finally, bam!-I'll hit him with the right hand and it's gonna be over." He also was having dreams over and over again about the fight happening in a similar way.

    (Paraphrased - pg. 254)

    During the fight, as we all know, Ali was dancing around a helpless opponent for a minute, until the "phantom punch" was landed. Mort Sharnik, who had interviewed Ali in the previous paraphrased passage had this to say:
    "It was just like Ali had envisioned it on the bus. Liston overloaded on the left, threw it, Ali rode the punch back and away, and Liston fell in toward him, and Ali rose up and brought his right hand up and dropped it as Liston was falling forward. Liston never saw the punch to his cheekbone, and it's the punch you never see that causes you the problem. People say it was a 'phantom punch'. You started hearing that phrase right away. Well, I was sitting with Floyd Patterson and Cus D'Amato. And there was an old Maine state trooper in what looked like a Smokey the Bear hat screaming, "Dammit, he hit him right smack on the chin!' And the bunch of us saw what happened. There was no question in our minds. Not later, but right away."

    (pg. 257)

    Chicky Ferrara was someone from Dundee's camp who was placed near Liston's corner to insure they wouldn't try cheating again. After the knockdown he said "[Sonny] blinked his eyes three times, like he was trying to clear his head, and I looked at Willie Reddish. I could see Reddish looked sick because he knew his fighter was in trouble."

    (Pg. 258)

    Ill spare you guys with full details on the confusion with Walcott and the ringside time keepers. Walcott wanted to start counting but Ali was going crazy. Walcott thought Ali was going to kick Liston in the head, or punch him as he was getting up, because he was acting like a mad man. Finally after Liston went up, Nat Fliescher yelled at Walcott to stop the fight, and Joe did.

    Heres another passage about Liston after the KO:

    "But it wasn't only Ali's conermen who could see that Liston had been stunned. Liston went back to the locker room and softly asked his cutman, Milt Bailey, for smelling salts. 'Smelling salts is nasty-you don't ask for smelling salts if you haven't been hit and hit hard," Bailey said.

    (259)

    And finally, Liston's thoughts on the matter:
    "I didn't think he could hit that hard. I didn't quit. I got hit and hurt good. Clay's right hand caught me high on the left cheekbone and I felt all screwed up. I figured I could beat the count but you don't figure so good when you get clobbered. It wasn't the hardest punch I ever took, but it was hard enough."

    Liston also says that he was scared to get up right away, because like Walcott, he thought Ali was going crazy, and was going to hit him as he was getting up.



    Well I hope this sheds a little more light on the fight. I know a few of you will really enjoy this information.


    Again the info in this post is from the book "King of the Ring" by David Remnick.
     
  2. Duodenum

    Duodenum Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    In the slow motion replay of the footage, I always look at the way the rear of Liston's cranium sharply whiplashes back when Ali's right connects. Only a solid impact could have caused his head to jerk like that. 20 seconds into round three of their first match, Sonny nearly sustained a similar knockdown, but was able to arrest his forward pitch before wobbling back to the ropes.

    Regardless of the kind of condition Liston whipped himself into, he was always going to be faced with a serious deficit in speed and mobility, and no amount of training was going to change the fact of youth not being on his side. Sonny had not partaken in any substantial extended competitive action since Machen in September 1960, before his young usurper had even made his professional debut! Since Liston-Machen, Sonny had less than four rounds of action in 1961, then less than two minutes each in 1962 and 1963, before getting beaten for the title after six rounds of uninspired effort.
     
  3. Cheese

    Cheese Member Full Member

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    In the in Liston knew he couldn't really get anything going with Ali. And on top of that he had the Nation of Islam threatening him, he felt like it wasn't worth it. George Foreman was Sonny's sparring partner for some time I believe. In the "Facing Ali" documentary George said he asked Sonny what happened in that fight and Sonny told him all I cared about is the do re mi (money). So Sonny was satisfied with his check.
     
  4. MRBILL

    MRBILL Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Been through this 100 X or more.........

    Team Ali was on the level, but Sonny Liston was in the tank... Ali's "Anchor" punch couldn't bust an egg over a sink... Liston's roll about on the floor was a horrid acting job... A real farce...

    MR.BILL

    Note:

    People like to point out that Liston got up looking to fight, but that was after he'd been down on the floor for well over 10 seconds and knew the fight would be halted by the ref upon rising.... Granted, Ol' Walcott ****ed up the count and lost control of the action by walking away from the two fighters to speak with the time-keeper, but the fight was technically over anyway......

    Just a suck fight to the max......
     
  5. reznick

    reznick In the 7.2% Full Member

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    Oh, so Liston knew before the fight that Nat Fleischer was going to instruct Walcott to halt the fight? He wasn't psychic.

    Liston knew the rules. You must go to a neutral corner before the ref starts counting. Why would Liston rush to stand up, when he knows he is entitles a few more seconds until Ali goes to his corner.

    The fight was not technically over. Because technically, the count cannot begin until the other fighter goes to a neutral corner.

    Why would Liston take a dive? The heavyweight belt was one of the most prized positions in the entire planet at the time. Why would he take the quick payday, when he could have made tons and tons of more money being a champion?

    Why would he make it look so obvious? Why would he go down so early? If he was throwing the fight, all he could have done was at least taken a few more rounds. You think Sonny Liston, one of the greatest heavyweight boxers in history, wouldn't go the extra round or two to make it look realistic so to not harm his reputation?

    The punch was real
    The fight was real
    Liston just didn't have the athleticism, age, or the will to fight the greatest boxer in history on one of his best nights.
     
  6. ripcity

    ripcity Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    If Liston threw the fight why did he get up and resume fighting with Ali?
     
  7. IntentionalButt

    IntentionalButt Guy wants to name his çock 'macho' that's ok by me

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    I was with you up until "greatest boxer in history", but the rest of this is spot on. :good
     
  8. reznick

    reznick In the 7.2% Full Member

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    I meant to say heavyweight. :(
     
  9. MRBILL

    MRBILL Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Ali landed a soft right tap while backing up and circling from Liston... Liston goes down and rolls all around the canvas like he'd been shot by a .44 magnum... Poor acting from Liston... Again, Ali was legit; Liston was not... Liston rolling around and then falling backwards to kill some more time was just pathetic acting... Liston tanked that performance in Maine... Either the Vegas mob or the Nation of Islam or both groups spooked Liston.... Some crew obviously had gotten to Liston prior to the fight.....

    Anyway you slice it, most observers feel the fight up in Maine in '65 stunk to high heaven and the smell still lingers there today.... That's pretty bad, folks.......

    I've seen the film over and over... Ali's "Anchor" punch had nothing of any real substance on it when he hit Liston on the side of the head during the opening rd...

    Liston tanked.......

    MR.BILL
     
  10. Sister Sledge

    Sister Sledge Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    It didn't just look a little fake. It looked very fake. Liston took way harder punches than that and not go down. It was staged.
     
  11. MRBILL

    MRBILL Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I will not say scripted or staged, because, that would mean that Ali's corner was invovled in the tank job up in Maine..... I think Ali was straight going in..... But Liston was spooked early on and had other plans that only he and a few others knew about.... But yes, the knockout looked highly sketchy to the max......

    MR.BILL:deal:yikes
     
  12. reznick

    reznick In the 7.2% Full Member

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    The punch connected right on his cheek. His left leg lifted from the ground from impact of the punch. Head snapped, back shaken. Many observers were reported to have said he visibly had "glazey eyes." His trainer had to walk him back to the corner, he needed help getting back there.

    The reason it looks fake to you, is because Liston wanted to wait to stand up. He could have stood up. He wanted to stand up. And he DID get up. However, during the time of the knockdown, Ali was all over him shouting like a maniac (mind you something like this hasn't happened before during a prestigious bout for the HW belt). Liston took his time, because Ali never went to his corner, AND he also thought Ali might do something crazy to him while he was getting up. The man was frightened.
    He was always bitter about it. He was mad at Fleischer for some time.


    Liston lost the fight when Ali got the hernia.

    It's my belief that he would have lost under any circumstance, however If the fight hadn't been rescheduled, we might have seen a much more competitive bout then their first meeting.
     
  13. The Pup

    The Pup Member Full Member

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    Ah I can recall this fight clear as day. I sat ringside opposite Ali's corner and noticed something weird about 'Mr' Listons 'Gray' shoe-laces before the bell, they were untied as If he had pre-determined to make a splash that day

    The rest is History
     
  14. MRBILL

    MRBILL Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Off topic.... But I also question Foreman's Sept. 1990 icing of Terry Armstrong over in London that was aired in the States by the USA Tuesday night fights... I have the farce on tape... This was Foreman's final warm-up fight to prepare for his title shot at Holy.... Foreman tagged Armstrong with a right hand in round 1 to the forehead of Armstrong and Armstrong dropped like a sack of taters... He was down on his face like he was out cold... But once the fight was waived off, Armstrong got back up and thanked Foreman for the payday and lifted Foreman up in a loving bear hug.... I smelled some horse**** there in London....

    MR.BILL
     
  15. Boom_Boom

    Boom_Boom R.I.P Boxing 6/9/12 Full Member

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    Liston beat the count ref screwed him over.

    The one thing that makes it suspicious for me is Liston never threw a single right at Ali's head for the entire fight, it felt like he always hesitated to throw it.