What I don´t understand about people criticizing Calzaghe...

Loewe · Jul 18, 2008

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Loewe · Jul 18, 2008

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Loewe · Jul 18, 2008

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Luigi1985 · Jul 18, 2008

Loewe said:

Well, you´re totally right here. We are only differing here on few things. Imo he lost to Hopkins and would lose even clearer to a younger version and than that he didn´t fullfill his potential.
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Agreed. And it´s also normal that everyone has his own opinion, and I respect other opinions, it´s only not good when we overact, and make a great fighter so bad when he clearly wasn´t. :thumbsup

red cobra · Jul 18, 2008

It seems to me that two fighters, Wlad Klitschko and Joe Calzaghe can't win for losing. They can't seem to please anybody. Does anybody see any commonality here?

Luigi1985 · Jul 18, 2008

red cobra said:

It seems to me that two fighters, Wlad Klitschko and Joe Calzaghe can't win for losing. They can't seem to please anybody. Does anybody see any commonality here?
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Yeah, agreed. But the difference is, that Wladimir has 3 KO- L´s against one journeyman, and at the best 2 mediocre fighters (mediocre history-wise). Can you immagine if Calzaghe would have 3 losses like that how people would think about him?

Loewe · Jul 18, 2008

Luigi1985 said:

Yeah, agreed. But the difference is, that Wladimir has 3 KO- L´s against one journeyman, and at the best 2 mediocre fighters (mediocre history-wise). Can you immagine if Calzaghe would have 3 losses like that how people would think about him?
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They would call him an overrated euro-bum.

JonOli · Jul 18, 2008

Luigi1985 said:

Yeah, agreed. But the difference is, that Wladimir has 3 KO- L´s against one journeyman, and at the best 2 mediocre fighters (mediocre history-wise). Can you immagine if Calzaghe would have 3 losses like that how people would think about him?
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Wlad is a heavy weight; Lewis had two losses.

Luigi1985 · Jul 18, 2008

JonOli said:

Wlad is a heavy weight.
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So what? Even if Wlad would be a Flyweight, it wouldn´t change anything. The thing about at HW one punch can KO anyone everytime is a bit overrated IMO.

Luigi1985 · Jul 18, 2008

JonOli said:

Wlad is a heavy weight; Lewis had two losses.
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He beat both in rematches clearly. Lewis said, that he underrated both, and for the rematches he was better prepared and KO´d both (TKO´d McCall). Wlad beat Ross clearly until he gassed out, no excusses here. And he didn´t fight him again later. Sanders beat him because his style was bad for Wlad (handspeed, power, size). And with Brewster, he did the same with Ross "The Boss", and he fought him when Brewster lost his last fight and when he had a 1 year layoff. I don´t want to dismiss Wladimir, he´s clearly one of the best HW´s of his generation, but that´s just how I see it. But let´s not digress, we should talk about the topic here...

daredevil1989 · Jul 18, 2008

PACFAN84 said:

I think what you wrote is wrong yes, but neither me nor I think anyone else on this forum wants me to write any more of my criticisms on Calzaghe. Not because they're particularly extreme, I do have the guy at #4 P4P just now and around #17 of his era, but because when the Calzaghe hoardes start on at me about it I can't let it go, I strongly believe he does not deserve the status and praise he gets and have been very vocal about this for quite some time, perhaps too vocal.

I reacted so strongly to this thread as I absolutely cannot work out how anyone, even Enzo ****ing Calzaghe, can say anything positive about the Hopkins fight. I've watched it many times, and to me it was perfectly obvious that Hopkins was streets ahead of Calzaghe, but at 43 he knew he did not have the stamina/energy/workrate to really go for it, hence his tactics to save energy.

- He knocked Joe down in the 1st, and Joe was hurt, but Hopkins knew if he went for the KO and couldn't find the killer blow, he would've used up too much of his limited amount of energy, so he didn't go for it. If he was even 4 or 5 years younger (the Hopkins of around 2004), he would have been confident enough in his ability to last 12 fast-paced rounds that he could've just went for it and not worried about the long haul.
- Hopkins landed every significant punch of the fight. He had Joe staggering at the end of one of the mid-late rounds and Joe was saved by the bell. Joe NEVER had Hopkins hurt, not remotely, not once. The judges made the wrong decision of going for quantity over quality, giving Calzaghe rounds for following Hop around pitter-pattering his elbows and arms.
- Hopkins's gameplan was the one that worked. I guarantee you at the end of the fight (watch it again and see) Enzo and Joe Calzaghe thought they had lost. Hopkins dictated the fight, he rendered Joe ineffective to the point of impotent, controlled Calzaghe, allowing him to chase, allowing him to flurry weakly against his defence, blunting and nullifying every single attack, and often getting through with his own shots. It was a superb display by Hopkins, it was marred only by a lack of energy and stamina which meant he had to hold and couldn't just go for it.
- The difference between 36 and 43 is huge. Maybe it isn't much when you compare a 21 year old to a 28 year old, but by their late 30s boxers are aging by the day. How many guys in history have shown the same stamina and workrate at 43 that they did at 36? I would argue none.
- Even if you do think Calzaghe won the fight (and it's fair enough if you do, it was a close fight and difficult to score), but even if you think he won, it cannot be viewed as a good performance or a positive display by Calzaghe. He could not hurt Hopkins, could not breach his defence, was outclassed, and had to rely on throwing loads of ineffective punches against a tired, 43 yr old opponent to try and fool the judges into thinking he was doing anything productive. I thought Calzaghe was a better fighter before the fight. It was alarming how little punch power he had compared to Hopkins.

I had it 7 rounds to 5 for Hopkins, with the KD making it a close but clear win for Hopkins. He is and always was a more talented, all round better, historically greater fighter than Calzaghe.
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:good top post!! took the words out of my mouth

TheChamp1000 · Jul 18, 2008

PACFAN84 said:

I think what you wrote is wrong yes, but neither me nor I think anyone else on this forum wants me to write any more of my criticisms on Calzaghe. Not because they're particularly extreme, I do have the guy at #4 P4P just now and around #17 of his era, but because when the Calzaghe hoardes start on at me about it I can't let it go, I strongly believe he does not deserve the status and praise he gets and have been very vocal about this for quite some time, perhaps too vocal.

I reacted so strongly to this thread as I absolutely cannot work out how anyone, even Enzo ****ing Calzaghe, can say anything positive about the Hopkins fight. I've watched it many times, and to me it was perfectly obvious that Hopkins was streets ahead of Calzaghe, but at 43 he knew he did not have the stamina/energy/workrate to really go for it, hence his tactics to save energy.

- He knocked Joe down in the 1st, and Joe was hurt, but Hopkins knew if he went for the KO and couldn't find the killer blow, he would've used up too much of his limited amount of energy, so he didn't go for it. If he was even 4 or 5 years younger (the Hopkins of around 2004), he would have been confident enough in his ability to last 12 fast-paced rounds that he could've just went for it and not worried about the long haul.
- Hopkins landed every significant punch of the fight. He had Joe staggering at the end of one of the mid-late rounds and Joe was saved by the bell. Joe NEVER had Hopkins hurt, not remotely, not once. The judges made the wrong decision of going for quantity over quality, giving Calzaghe rounds for following Hop around pitter-pattering his elbows and arms.
- Hopkins's gameplan was the one that worked. I guarantee you at the end of the fight (watch it again and see) Enzo and Joe Calzaghe thought they had lost. Hopkins dictated the fight, he rendered Joe ineffective to the point of impotent, controlled Calzaghe, allowing him to chase, allowing him to flurry weakly against his defence, blunting and nullifying every single attack, and often getting through with his own shots. It was a superb display by Hopkins, it was marred only by a lack of energy and stamina which meant he had to hold and couldn't just go for it.
- The difference between 36 and 43 is huge. Maybe it isn't much when you compare a 21 year old to a 28 year old, but by their late 30s boxers are aging by the day. How many guys in history have shown the same stamina and workrate at 43 that they did at 36? I would argue none.
- Even if you do think Calzaghe won the fight (and it's fair enough if you do, it was a close fight and difficult to score), but even if you think he won, it cannot be viewed as a good performance or a positive display by Calzaghe. He could not hurt Hopkins, could not breach his defence, was outclassed, and had to rely on throwing loads of ineffective punches against a tired, 43 yr old opponent to try and fool the judges into thinking he was doing anything productive. I thought Calzaghe was a better fighter before the fight. It was alarming how little punch power he had compared to Hopkins.

I had it 7 rounds to 5 for Hopkins, with the KD making it a close but clear win for Hopkins. He is and always was a more talented, all round better, historically greater fighter than Calzaghe.
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So Hopkins game plan worked he just run out of stamina? He dropped joe in the first and was doing well until round 4. Joe adjusts and ups the pace Joe starts winning rounds hopkins struggles with joes pace.
From around round 8-9 onwards freddie roach is then telling hopkins he need to do more, hopkins then has to chase joe and become more active because he is now probably behind on the cards.
Hopkins tries to raise his output for the next few rounds, joe is in front now and on top. Hopkins takes a 3-4 min rest for a low blow regathers some stamina and has another go. Still not enough, Joe has out adjusted him and at the end its hopkins who is fighting joes fight. Big props to Hopkins because he is a good fighter but he just got beat with his gameplan.

You can go on and take it even further dont blame stamina, Hopkins would have won the fight clearly if every round had been like the first when he dropped joe. No credit for Joe getting up from a 1st round knock down in a foreign country in one of the hardest challenges of his career?
No? just the plain old hate from you pacman.

daredevil1989 · Jul 19, 2008

TheChamp1000 said:

So Hopkins game plan worked he just run out of stamina? He dropped joe in the first and was doing well until round 4. Joe adjusts and ups the pace Joe starts winning rounds hopkins struggles with joes pace.
From around round 8-9 onwards freddie roach is then telling hopkins he need to do more, hopkins then has to chase joe and become more active because he is now probably behind on the cards.
Hopkins tries to raise his output for the next few rounds, joe is in front now and on top. Hopkins takes a 3-4 min rest for a low blow regathers some stamina and has another go. Still not enough, Joe has out adjusted him and at the end its hopkins who is fighting joes fight. Big props to Hopkins because he is a good fighter but he just got beat with his gameplan.

You can go on and take it even further dont blame stamina, Hopkins would have won the fight clearly if every round had been like the first when he dropped joe. No credit for Joe getting up from a 1st round knock down in a foreign country in one of the hardest challenges of his career?
No? just the plain old hate from you pacman.
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joe didnt take over the fight til probably round 8 or 9 to an extent where you could say he was dominating the rounds even in rounds 5,6 and 7 hopkins was still landing the cleaner shots and calzaghe wasnt getting through with much bar a couple of straight lefts

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