What if Ali didn't have Dundee in his corner?

ThatOne · Jul 23, 2025

META5 said: ↑

He used the shoulder roll against Foreman, used his shoulder at least once against Mildenberger, tucked his chin behind his shoulder pre-exile when he was dancing and then would blade and pivot and jab to the body.

Ali has instances of demonstrating rather fundamental, orthodox defensive and offensive moves ... when he wants to.
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Ellis might not have been a great, but he had some nice scalps. Ali clowned him.

ThatOne · Jul 23, 2025

Saintpat said: ↑

First off, Angelo did not ‘put him in with Holmes. Ali made that choice, same as he did with Berbick.

Secondly, no matter how anyone wants to rewrite history, Ali was not known to have brain damage (or Parkinson’s at the time of either fight (was there ever an actual diagnosis of brain damage at any point?).

li went to the Mayo Clinic before the Holmes fight to be checked out by some of the top medical experts in the world. He was checked out at UCLA before the Berbick fight. The commission had the results from the Mayo Clinic and certified him fit to fight. The UCLA report was released although I’m not sure whatever commission the Bahamas had was qualified to know what they were doing.

Ferdie’s concerns, stated publicly at the time, were that Ali might have kidney problems. He is the doctor who was closes to Ali and he never once raised any issues with the possibility of brain damage or Parkinson’s. After Ali was seen by the Mayo Clinic, Ferdie told either The NY Times or the Washington Post that he still wished Ali would retire but it was “no longer a medical decision” and now was a personal decision on whether Ali wanted to fight or not.

As for Dundee, he had a choice: He could either be there for the man whether he thought he should be fighting or not; or he could abandon him because he didn’t think he should still be fighting — and leave him at the mercy of perhaps someone unqualified (or certainly not as qualified or experienced or with as much knowledge about Ali as Dundee was). He chose the former. Ali would have fought with or without him.

If Dundee isn’t in the corner for the Holmes fight, Bundini probably prevails on letting the fight go on even longer. Dundee stopped it. You can argue that he did so too late, but at least he did. If Angelo isn’t there, you probably end up with someone on par with Tyson’s corner vs Douglas (using a rubber glove filled with water rather than an Enswell) left to make that decision.

It wasn’t Dundee’s choice whether Ali had those last two fights, it was Muhammad’s. He chose to be there. Same as people choose to support friends or family members who do dangerous things — bungee jump, rock climbing without a rope, etc.
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Dundee specifically said if Ali wanted to fight he would be there. I'm sure Veronica his then wife didn't want him to fight anymore but he was hard headed and loved the limelight.

Reinhardt · Jul 23, 2025

Saintpat said: ↑

First off, Angelo did not ‘put him in with Holmes. Ali made that choice, same as he did with Berbick.

Secondly, no matter how anyone wants to rewrite history, Ali was not known to have brain damage (or Parkinson’s at the time of either fight (was there ever an actual diagnosis of brain damage at any point?).

li went to the Mayo Clinic before the Holmes fight to be checked out by some of the top medical experts in the world. He was checked out at UCLA before the Berbick fight. The commission had the results from the Mayo Clinic and certified him fit to fight. The UCLA report was released although I’m not sure whatever commission the Bahamas had was qualified to know what they were doing.

Ferdie’s concerns, stated publicly at the time, were that Ali might have kidney problems. He is the doctor who was closes to Ali and he never once raised any issues with the possibility of brain damage or Parkinson’s. After Ali was seen by the Mayo Clinic, Ferdie told either The NY Times or the Washington Post that he still wished Ali would retire but it was “no longer a medical decision” and now was a personal decision on whether Ali wanted to fight or not.

As for Dundee, he had a choice: He could either be there for the man whether he thought he should be fighting or not; or he could abandon him because he didn’t think he should still be fighting — and leave him at the mercy of perhaps someone unqualified (or certainly not as qualified or experienced or with as much knowledge about Ali as Dundee was). He chose the former. Ali would have fought with or without him.

If Dundee isn’t in the corner for the Holmes fight, Bundini probably prevails on letting the fight go on even longer. Dundee stopped it. You can argue that he did so too late, but at least he did. If Angelo isn’t there, you probably end up with someone on par with Tyson’s corner vs Douglas (using a rubber glove filled with water rather than an Enswell) left to make that decision.

It wasn’t Dundee’s choice whether Ali had those last two fights, it was Muhammad’s. He chose to be there. Same as people choose to support friends or family members who do dangerous things — bungee jump, rock climbing without a rope, etc.
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Ali was known to have failed a test, he couldn't stand on one foot and touch his nose, but what were they going to do, cancel a multi million dollar fight. Watch some of Ali's interviews while he's training for that fight, he's slurring his words like a guy with a .25 BAC. Pacheco knew what kind of shape he was in and warned everyone in Ali's camp but,,everyone Including Dundee WERE GETTING PAID.

ThatOne · Jul 23, 2025

Reinhardt said: ↑

Ali was known to have failed a test, he couldn't stand on one foot and touch his nose, but what were they going to do, cancel a multi million dollar fight. Watch some of Ali's interviews while he's training for that fight, he's slurring his words like a guy with a .25 BAC. Pacheco knew what kind of shape he was in and warned everyone in Ali's camp but,,everyone Including Dundee WERE GETTING PAID.
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Who was going to stop him? King promoted those fights. I wonder if Arum would have if King didn't. He seems to have a semblance of a conscience. I don't belive King liked fighters because he was jealous of them.

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What if Ali didn't have Dundee in his corner?

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