What if Ali wasn't exiled for those years????

On the first Liston vs. Clay fight.
It's all documented.

Sonny's fight purse was held by the I.R.S.
The gate receipts were seized.
And the I.C.P. money, went to all the associates tied to Sonny Boy.
And Ash Resnick, covered Sonny's expenses.
Sonny left Miami Beach with.......zip.
Flew to Chicago first, for a business meeting $$$$, then out to Denver.

On 'Smokin Joe's' peak,,,,,,,,,that one can be debated by all.
I like the quicker Joe, 1968/1969.

And when I say 'ripped apart', I meant by the press, for Terrell's inept ring performance's before Ali.

 

I think Frazier's Peak is '68 Mathis to '71 Ali.

However, i agree he was a bit quicker prior to FOTC, then again Ali was his quickest opponent.

Frazier looked slightly faster & more explosive against Ellis & Foster in '70, than he did in other fights i consider Peak.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TA8kEbAmFfg[/ame]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8DIEsPQVN4&feature=related[/ame]


[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rewbK0QmSoE[/ame]

 

Documented where?

 

No way was he quicker against Mathis than against Ellis, Foster and Ali.

Terrell seldom looked good and no one claims he was a great fighter. But his run from 1962 to 1967 is perhaps the best for any HW not deemed more than a good contender. That he never beat a quality fighter after the beating Ali gave him is hardly surprising.

 

ali's style was his legs so he lost a lot in those exile years. he tired badly v bonavena and then frazier. i give frazier a hellavalot a credit for winning fotc but if you watch the prior bonavena fight, it clearly shows that the exile had took a lot out of ali in regards to his footwork and ofcourse stamina. he needed more fights before taking on frazier - ali underestimated him.

 

United States 5th Circuit Court, for one.

United States Senate Subcommitte on Antitrust and Monoploy

Committe Chairman, Philip A. Hart

'Though Sonny Liston seemed to live a pristine and lonely life in the high, pure air of Denver,
he was actually a man with friends galore, friends that ranged from fetid Philadelphia to virtous Las Vegas,
gambling friends and advising friends, above all, the kind of friends a man would be happy to share money with'.

'It is impossible not to tie Sonny Liston to these underlying group of businessman. The fight in Miami Beach is
just a facade. The money to be made is in the back-room dealings, closed circuit theatres, hidden expenses and
the close-knit few who toppled the illegal gambing halls in the major cities.'

'How and why does a mob-connected gambler in Chicago, place a $10,000 wager on Cassius Clay, at an illegal
gambling hall in upstate New York that is not mob-connected, when he can place the same bet in Las Vegas, or with his local bookie in Chicago.'

'Why, after the fight, does Sonny Liston fly into Chicago, and have a meeting with known gamblers and mob-related
individuals. This thing goes deeper than anyone knows.'

 

Hope this link helps, K. (Note the date of the argument and date the 8-0 ruling stunningly in favor of Ali was handed down.):

http://www.aavw.org/protest/ali_alivus_abstract08.html

 

That's the most substantial thing I've seen, even though it's circumstantial at best. One gambler making a strange bet is hardly uncommon. A 10.000$ bet would not make any real money, it would actually not amount to anything considering all the people who must have been involved. We're talking in the region of a million here for it to be worth throwing a title shot away. And Liston meeting with gangsters... he was mob connected after all. Must have done that many times. And nothing is mentioned here about him leaving with a lot of money.

That's just common conspiracy tehroy practice. Grabbing at everything which seems out of the ordinary (which nothing here actually is) and just hope that it is suggestive enough in itself, even though it really shows nothing.

I was referring to the first fight, though, which you've also claimed was a fix.

 

Bokaj,

I think you're missing the point.
Many of the Chicago crew bet on Cassius Clay in the illegal gambing parlors
and with bookies who were not mob-connected.

The goal, to put a 'crunch' on their competition.

Nobody in their right mind would put a $50,000 bet on Cassius in one of those
non-connected places. Nobody would be able to come up with $350,000.

But a bunch of $10,000 bets, would net $70,000, at selected gambling halls
or targeted non-conforming bookies.

The U.S. Justice Department calculated there were 20+ non-mob controlled
gambling locations in and around Chicago, that were hit for over $2,000,000.

And 5 upstate New York (Catskills area) gambling joints were hit for $300,000.
And one Utica, New York (non-mob) bookie was nailed for $120,000, when
'two' large 'yard' bets were placed on Cassius Clay just hours before the fight.

 

If this is correct it is indeed strong circumstantial evidence.

That is for a separate thread, though. I was only highlighting the fact that you try to undermine everyone of Ali's important victories. Saying that 1969 Frazier would do to a peak Ali what he did to Buster Mathis is downright silly. Mathis was good, but there is a world of difference between him and Ali at his best.

 

problem with this is...in 69, if ali hadnt lost his license...he wouldnt have been that 71 version of ali we seen....he would have had continuous boxing activity and have been closer to the 67 version of ali {the absolute peak version} than he would have been to that 71 version....
for me...even if joe was even better in 69...an active ali would have been too...and i'd be betting on ali on points...he'd be on his toes more and taking less punishment...all guesswork of course.

 

Yes, both fighters were better in 1969.

And so was Oscar Bonavena and Jerry Quarry.

To say 1971 was Joe at his peak, is to diminish his sterling performances of
1968/1969/1970.
Both fighters were faster, and hit quicker in 1969.

Also, for 1969, Ali most likely would have been involved with anywhere between
3 and 6 more fights, from April 1967 thru December 1968.

The added fighting, would defintely take its toll.

 

T-N-T,

The Chicago (connected-crew) had a two-fold agenda with the Sonny Liston bets.
1) Make money with the long odds 7-1
2) Put a hurt on the non mob-connected gambling halls and non-conforming bookies.

Several of the Chicago-based and upstate New York non-connected gambling joints were put out of business, or were severely hurt on the late rush of bets.