What if Ali wasn't exiled. Would he universelly be seen as the best p4p?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Bokaj, Jan 4, 2008.


  1. ron u.k.

    ron u.k. Boxing Addict banned

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    i agree on what you say about ali probably becoming a better person as a result of the exile.he could be a nasty so and so before then,and it's true he was a much more charming man later.i was talking purely in boxing terms
     
  2. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Forget the politics and the supposed personal development and just focus on his fighting abilities. Picture that there never were a Vietnam war or Black Muslims if it makes it easier for you. How would Ali have evolved purely as fighter if his career hadn't been interrupted?

    Personally I also think that he would have had his best years during this time. Maybe he would have put on a couple of pounds without losing any speed, just gaining power. Frazier and even Bonavena might have given him some trouble, but I think that he would have cleaned out the whole division until at least the mid 70's. Norton might still have beat a 30+ Ali, though. At least in their first meeting.

    But Ali would probably still have dominated the heavyweight division for at least 10 years, which is better than even Louis, taking into account that Louis was inactive for something like 4 years of his 12 year reign.
     
  3. C. M. Clay II

    C. M. Clay II Manassah's finest! Full Member

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    As Herb Goldman said, "We never saw Ali from 1967-1970. He would have blazed a trail in boxing that the world has never seen!"

    I agree.:good
     
  4. TBooze

    TBooze Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Ali's greatness was comfirmed by his ability to come back from setbacks and his ability to win wars. Without that, he would be still be rated very highly and we may indeed of seen some sensational performances by him in 68/69; but Tyson was a sensation for two years and although a top 12/15 Queensberry Rules Heavy, most who know their boxing have him no where near Louis or Ali. Ali without the exile would be in the same boat IMO.
     
  5. Quick Cash

    Quick Cash Well-Known Member Full Member

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    The exile made him a sentimental darling among boxing fans which is mainly why a biased few rank him as number one at heavyweight. Frankly, in pure boxing terms, he lost plenty to the long lay-off. If he had faced Frazier when Frazier should have gotten his title shot, I think he could have pulled out a victory. However, I don't think he would have matched Marciano's 49-0. He would have definitely outstayed his welcome, but probably to a lesser degree.

    Nothing he could have done, exile or no, could realistically put him close to the top 5 all time pound for pound; nevermind about supplanting Robinson as number one.
     
  6. groove

    groove Well-Known Member Full Member

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    check my avatar out. That was the headline after the Folley fight - Ali Invincible (well that's what they thought). One punch KO in that fight. No exile and he woulda been getting better at those one punch KO's. The timing was perfect - his right hand counter over the opponent's left jab, Ali had that timed to perfection. Gone after exile. Only way to get it back is by fighting for real and therefore lots of fights is required.

    No exile then Ali would be seen as the greatest Heavyweight ever easy when you think of how many more fights you could watch of him in his peak years 25-28 years old. I can't see him losing to anyone up to atleast 1970 and there would be more excellent performances like he showed against Big Cat and the Octopus. Frazier would be his hardest fight ofcourse but i think Ali would win by UD. Always be close fights but Ali wouldn't tire so easily and wouldn't be as flat footed and therefore wouldn't be hit as easy. Bonavena he would've whooped in 1968. Ellis, Quarry, Foster, Mathis - no contest for him in 1968/9. p4p still be Sugar Ray 1st. Then Ali 2nd. If Ali had his first loss to Norton in 1973 (broken jaw) then he could've been atleast 50-0 at that time without exile.
     
  7. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 VIP Member

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    :good
     
  8. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    One can do two sorts of comparisons between Sugar Ray and Ali. One is to compare career records and here Sugar Ray's stands out as the most impressive. He was welter- and middleweight champion (5 times at that) and recorded something like 99 straight victories in his prime. That's a record no one can compare to. But - Ali's record would probably have been more impressive if it wasn't for his exile, and he still had a marvelous record. Fot that reason it isn't a totally fair comparison.

    The other is to compare their assets -physical, mental and technical. And here I would give Ali the nod, even though we probably never saw his absolute prime (which I and many others think would have come during the years he spent in exile). His overall speed - handspeed, footspeed and reflexes - was in my opinion the best ever p4p. It might also be fair to say the same about his stamina and conditioning. No other 210+ pound guy has ever bounced around and thrown punches for 15 rounds, without even becoming visible tired, like he did against Terrell for example. His recuperative powers and his ability to take a punch, both to the head and the body, were also incredible. He was furthermore much stronger than many believe, was one of the very few who could smother the power of both Liston and Foreman. According to Ken Norton Ali was a lot stronger than Larry Holmes, that was about the same size. Norton also said that hitting Ali on the arms and to the body was like hitting cement. It is true though that Sugar Ray had a better knock-out punch p4p than Ali, but all in all I would say that pre-exile Ali was physically superior to Sugar Ray p4p.

    When it comes to the mental aspect it would be fair to say that Ali's will to win and his boxing intelligence was second to none. Robinson also had an unsurpassed will to win and was an extremely intelligent boxer. But I don't think he really reached Ali's level of scientific boxing nor was he as astute in pre-match mind games. Nothing compares to Ali's outpsyching of Liston and his outsmarting of Foreman in my opinion.

    So, all that is left is technique. Ali had a very unorthodox style and for many that is enough reason not to compare him favourable to Sugar Ray. I think this is a bit narrow-minded, though. He made extremely good use of this style when in his prime, and when he became older and slower he adjusted it enough to still dominate perhaps the greatest generation of heavyweights ever.

    So in comparing theirs assets Ali comes out on top in my opinion and if he never was exiled this might have been an even clearer case. As it stands Robinson has the superior record, though, but that might not be the case had Ali never been exiled. For that reason he is in my book probably the best p4p ever, and I think fewer would argue this if it wasn't for the exile.
     
  9. Sweet Pea

    Sweet Pea Obsessed with Boxing banned

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    What does that have to do with ANYTHING? Floyd Mayweather has better all around technical skills than Henry Armstrong, that doesn't make him a better fighter.