What If...Burns had drawn the color line

Box Rec says he was 23. Never started a racial thread in my life I was banned for making a thread comparing the best Black Champs to the best White ones and it was deemed by a faceless moderator to be likely to inflame racial comments.
You wouldn't know the difference because you're a half wit.
You wont buy any books you don't want the truth, you just want to propagate your own little biased theories.You've even accused the OP of this thread a highly respected boxing biographer, corner man , judge, and attorney at law of being biased!
Taken overall , you're pretty disgusting, do you know that.

 

Your are not understanding. Once again this was in reply to Jeannette being ranked in 1906. I say no way, he wasn't. I Think Johnson beat or drew with a pre-prime Jeanette. That's not praise or credit.

"The win ( Jeanette's ) was because Johnson went low. A DQ. Does a draw really put anyone in the top ten? Jeanette's record when he last fought Johnson according to Box rec is 10-10-1 losing four of his last six. Jeanette only beat one fighter in 1906, thats it. Come on Matt, a person with that record isn't comfortably in the top ten. "

 

The dsq was very controversial,but you wont mention that.

 

Wow, this is the most complementary I've ever seen you be about Jack!

 

Mendoza, 1906 YEAR-END ratings;
1906

Champion Burns
2 Johnson
3 O’Brien
4 Langford
5 Jeanette
6 McVey
7 Kaufman
8 Schreck
9 Hart
10 Ruhlin

Fergison could be there at the lower end, other than that, slim pickings. Jeanette had a win on a foul-conflicting reports- and a draw with the clear number one. Langford had a win over Jeannette. Mightn't be good enough in a good year but this wasn't a good year. Remember it is year-end.

 

Good info , thanks Matt ! I put Shreck's name forward as a possible white threat to Burns.

 

I am for free speach. On some other forums you would be banned for stupidity. Jeannette was badly damaged, doctors say so. It was a low blow. Johnson threw his share of them, along with hitting on the break in other fights.

Read the Boston Globe review, they say Johnson fired multiple low blows.

" Jeanette was removed to the dressing room and the club physician substantiated his claim. Johnson was promptly disqualified. Jeanette professed to be in great pain and lay in his dressing room in apparent agony. "

The only controversial part is how can Johnson retained a title on a DQ loss?

 

Thanks Matt.

I appreciate the effort as there are no official rankings in this timeline.. Okay, year end ratings.

Questions. Which fight did Langford win at heavyweight to be ranked #5? If the answer is none, he does not qualify for heavyweight rankings

You are aware that Jeannette was 10-10-1, losing 4 of his last six in 1906. How could a fighter like that possibly be ranked, even in a weak time? Joe won just one fight in 1906, vs a journeyman

As for who to add you might consider Jack to Root, George Gardiner, Fireman Flynn, ect...

 

Chances are, he would have been found dead somewhere mutilated. And we know who would have done it.

 

Did you miss the words," claimed," and," apparent". Johnson won the 1st round handily.What possible motive would he have for deliberately fouling Jeannette which is what you have claimed several times? Johnson fought both Black Bill and Jeannette on the same night.He fought Young Peter Jackson one day and Jeannette the next!

No comment on the words," claimed ,"and , "apparent"? Jeannette was in such a bad way,such agony, so badly damaged that he fought Johnson just seven days later!
In a six rounder Johnson dropped him in the 5th, and 3 times in the 6th why would he need to foul a man he so obviously dominated ?
ps Johnson had fought 12 rounds with Young Peter Jackson the night before! Thats how much Jeannette worried him!
"Johnson was beating Jeannette,but lost via disqualification in the second round.
Johnson had been outclassing Jeannette for a round and a half, but then lost as a result of an alleged foul"
Jeannette after being thumped in lively fashion in the first round assumed a crouching pose in the second round.He undertook to run in and clinch,ducking a vicious left hand swing.Johnson ripped a right-hand hook up for Jeannette's jaw.The latter dropped to the floor writhing in "apparent agony".He claimed to have been struck a low blow."
Philadelphia Public Ledger.

"Apparently there was some suspicion about the bout and its result.
Clearly, based on the words this local reporter used,he suspected Jeannette had not been fouled.
The local writer, who actually saw the fight, questioned whether Jeannette had fooled the referee into thinking it was a foul.
The police wondered if the fight had been fixed." Adam Pollack." In The Ring With Jack Johnson The Rise."

 

Black Fitzsimmons.Langford had beaten men as heavy as McCoy , Mitchell, and Choynski ,whom you allowed to be considered in your thread for lineal champions best wins.

 

...And crucially, he had beaten Jeannette which, along with the Johnson defeat, hearald his entry into the heavyweight stakes. It was common in this period for good middleweights and indeed the newly flanged light heavies to box at heavyweight, McCoy, Gardner, Root, Carter, West, Byers, Walcott etc.

The case for Jeannette(and therefore Langford) is straightforward. In late 1905 he entered the mix by getting the disqualification win over Johnson and the win over Langford. He was now mixing successfully with the regular second tier of Cole, Walter Johnson, Jeffords, Black Bill. Sure he lost a return to Langford and three decision to Johnson but he ko'ed Black Bill and rounded off the year with a draw against the clear number one in Johnson. Therefore he has to be rated.

The 1906 form of the top fighters;

3 O’Brien-just off the win over Fitz, drew with Berger, three easy wins and then a title draw with Burns.

4 Langford-unbeaten with the win over Jeannette.

5 Jeanette-as stated above

6 McVey-A given, win over Ed Martin

7 Kaufman-Came into the ratings with wins over Berger and Gardner.

8 Schreck-Beat Hart

9 Hart-only fights were title loss to Burns and the loss to Schreck.

10 Ruhlin-Draw with Ferguson

Ferguson-just one fight, the draw with Ruhlin

Flynn-pre 1906 nothing much, loss to Root and a draw with Gardner. In 1906 draw with Jack Twin Sullivan, a loss in title fight v Burns.

Gardner-Finished as a top contender losing to Jeffords and Kaufman and would never win again.

Root- Won unpopular decision over Russell and retired before the year end.

I'm happy with my selections.

 

This thread has become a little derailed, not least by me, but it's very interesting. For me, Burns was better than any white heavyweight at least until McCarty and he probably didn't survive long enough to fight for the title and there were no really decent white fighters until Fulton and Dempsey. The best early on were Gunboat and Kaufman. I fancy Tommy over Smith but the big imponderable comes from the fact that Tommy never fought a good class BIG heavyweight. So Kaufman, Coffey, Morris, Moran might beat him, my instinct says he was better than them, using Flynn as a guage. Probably lose to Battling Levinsky or Jack Dillon.

 

Jack Twin Sullivan, Seemed to be on the scene around this time. From Memory he had a win over Schrek and Tommy Burns. Not a large guy, but on results you would think he would have been in line for a fight with Tommy, if Johnson hadnt spoiled the party.

George Gardner might have been on the scene as well wouldnt he?

Also what about Sandy ferguson, he was very highly rated at the time, although without looking back at his record, was he maybe finished by now?

I am not saying i discard the Johnson wins over Jeanette and co anywhere near as much as Mendoza seems to (in fact quite the opposite probably), but wihout the benefit of hindsight, i can see why Jeanette might not have been considered that good at the time.

To me it seems that with the title retirment, there was no real consensus champion (i read somewhere that Jeffries admitted that the promoter picked hart and root because he thought they were the two guys he had who he thought he could make the most money with. And he also had Johnson under contract to fight at this time! Jeffries really had cleared out everybody and there seemed to be a large number of guys on equal footing to get the 3rd or 4th contender spot, with none really a standout over the other.

 

See my post #71 above, covers Gardner, Ferguson etc. Sullivan is a good spot, he beat Burns and Schreck in 1905, drew with O'Brien and didn't do much wrong in '06 with draws with Flynn and Hugo Kelly. I had Sullivan at 9 in 1905 and 10 in 1907.