What if Cassius Clay never became a boxer?

Liston, Frazier, Foreman, (Holmes)?

 

Liston-Foreman-Holmes

 

I guess the really good question is, who else would have handed Foreman his first loss? :think

 

I can't see Liston holding Frazier off until Foreman came along....

 

Holmes IMHO.

 

:good

 

You may be right. But, I can easily see Liston handing Joe a defeat in 67-68. I see Liston as being a poor style match up for Joe. Then, I think Foreman probably would have defeated an old Liston.

 

Sonny Liston died in 1970 when Foreman was something like 15-0.....

 

So you can assume Ali never becomes a boxer, but I can't assume Liston doesn't die ?

 

I didn't start the thread but thats a good point, its all academic I suppose!!!

Now were getting into the Twilight Zone....

OK, assume Sonny doesn't die in 1970. I still don't see him holding out until Foreman is ready to challenge him in (say) '72.

 

Someone may have defeated him at some point, but I think a guy like Frazier is just made for Sonny, no matter how old.

 

1970-71 I could see the older, big punching champ being forced to fight at a pace he's uncomforable with and dropping a decision to Frazier.

 

My gross take:

-Liston stays as champion up to 1969-1970 (he doesn't die yet in this alternate universe)
-Frazier becomes the new champion around 1970-71 and cleans out the division
-Foreman grills Frazier 1973 in the same way that it did in real life, he doesn't lose his self confidence because Kinhasa never happens, matures as a boxer, and reigns as undefeated champ for the next few years

And here comes my big guess: Holmes arrives in 1978 and challenges Foreman. But, I think that a mature, self-confident, improved and more experienced Foreman has a real chance of stopping Holmes and staying as champion for some more few years, perhaps until the beginning of the 80s.