What if Dundee let Ali quit?

The thing that makes no sense about Linament Liston is that....if this solution was being used to heal Sonny's cut eye, wouldn't this noxious substance be even more in his eye than Ali's? How does it not damage Sonny's eye, but harm's Ali's?

 

The way I heard it is that the stuff was put on Liston's gloves between rounds, and any time he landed a punch, or got Ali in any kind of clinch, he rubbed his gloves in Ali's face ... supposedly a similar tactic was used by Liston's corner in other fights when he was having a difficult time catching his opponent.

 

The other theory is that the liniment was being used to treat Liston's sore shoulder and got rubbed onto Ali's forehead in the clinches. That's why the effect became much worse in his corner after Dundee sponged his face and washed the stuff into his eyes.

Eddie Machen claimed the same thing happened to him when he fought Liston in 1960 - but as far as I can make out he didn't come up with that story until after it happened in the Ali fight.

 

Ali went back to his corner and told Dundee.."Cut my gloves off...I can't see!!!"

 

Good post.

 

If he quits then there is a minor uproar regarding what was actually on listons gloves. Ali is seen in a bad light by the press. Liston goes on to make a couple of easy defences. Ali gets back in the ring and soon regains his number one contender spot. Two years after the original match they meet again. Ali is in a avenging frame of mind and attacks liston from the start. This is a more aggressive muhammad and liston is cut and hurt by the third round. By the fifth liston has had enough, turns his back on ali and says 'no more'. Ali screams at liston that he's a coward and a fake, then does his famous 'I Shook up the world'! Rant. Liston fight s on a few more years until calling it a day in 1968.

 

First off....the idea that Ali was going to quit after round 14 in Manila is pure hogwash. Ali beat Frazier all over the ring in round 14. He was not going to quit knowing his opponent was helpless.

Secondly no real time was bought in between rounds after Ali was knocked down by Cooper. Possibly a few seconds. That's it. Note that Ali turned up the juice immediately the next round to end the fight.

 

People do tend forget about the fact that Ali was suspicious of Dundee at this point of time due to his Sicilian origins. Also later thinking he was a spy for the Feds to watch his antics with the NOI.

Without Ali's involvement with the Nation of Islam, do you reckon the mob would've got to him like they did with Liston?

Terrell managers also had mob connections just like Jersey Joe Walcotts association with the Philly mob.

 

That was in Mantequilla's title defense against Ralph Charles, in 1972, in London, won by Napoles, by TKO 7.

 

Really Good Post, I enjoyed this.

 

This. Unfortunately this dirty tactic was very common in the the 50’s and 60’s and even blinded some fighters in those days. According to my Grandfather’s stablemate this tactic was often used by the house fighters at the Olympic Auditorium in the late 50’s and that it was in your best interest to try and end your fight early if you weren’t the house fighter, since it takes a couple of rounds for the liniment to burn the eyes up.

My trainer also was a victim of this in the 60’s and referred to it as burning the gloves. He said one way guys would blind their opponent was to have their trainer apply the chemical to the thumb and then thumb their opponent, so it takes immediate affect. SRL and Floyd Patterson used this as one of their arguments for when they advocated for making the boxing gloves thumbless or having the thumb attached.

 

Ferdie Pacheco in Ali's corner at the time didn't deny he said cut the gloves off, Pacheco stated when asked ,,we all were ready to quit. I believe it was a fighter named Monroe who was near Ali's corner that heard it and was trying to get Fraziers corners attention. I believe it, when Ali found out it was over he stood up,,,,then collapsed onto the mat, he was finished

 

I disagree.

 

Well, I wasn't there and neither were you so everything is second hand knowledge, but, Pacheco was right about everything else concerning Ali and Dundee, he said Dundee wouldn't protect Ali when the time came and he was right. Dundee went into the ring with Muhammed against Holmes, Dundee literally had a brain damaged fighter in his corner and he knew it. Years later I saw a documentary where Ali and Pacheco were reunited and Ali was in terrible shape, he whispered to Ferdie," you were right". Pacheco has more credibility than Dundee on this subject.