What if Frazier and Ali fought in the 60s?

It means plenty.

Joe never faced anything close to the best Ali. This has to be factored into the equation. When anyone talks of Ali as being the greatest no 1 ATG they are referring to the Ali from the 60's and those that really know the history further factor in that we never saw the best Ali (Dundee spoke of this also at length) since he was out of the ring with no pro fights and little training for four long years. Those more than likely were his top prime years.

Frazier in 1971 going into their initial encounter was 26 years old....prime for most any fighter. He was undefeated hwt champion. He was more motivated for this fight than any other...he literally wanted to kill Ali and trained like a demon so he could do so.

You could say Joe was prime 2 years earlier but going into this bout he still was in his prime....undefeated hwt champion and 26 years of age. He certainly fought this fight in a very impressive fashion...I never saw him look better. On the other side of the coin Ali was way past his prime....no knowledgable boxing trainer or historian would disagree. You can't be prime after four years not applying ones craft.

Final point is....all the above being the case Frazier won fight one by...two rounds. That's it. Prime Ali dancing and boxing for 15 rounds would pose a much tougher target for Frazier. He certainly would win more rounds in doing so. Ali won most of the rounds he won in 71 by....moving and boxing. The Ali of the 60's was a far superior and faster boxer that the Ali post exile.

A more fair comparison for Joe would be to put him as he was in 71 in the ring with the Ali of Manila. I could see that Frazier having the speed and endurance to win this one.

 

Ali was 6 months shy of a four year layoff. He was past his prime. Everyone understands this to be true....everyone except nud nicks like you. Joe was in his prime. Over that same 4.5 year period Frazier had 13 bouts. Joe was an active full time in the gym fighter all of those years...Ali was not. Never met a guy who is wrong all of the time like you. Once you reach puberty things may get better for you.

 

...So 26 is the magic age for all heavyweights (or fighters in general)? What about Tyson? What about Lewis? What about Wlad?


So I gather now that the best Ali you've seen is him vs Williams, and now you say the best Frazier you've seen in him vs Ali... How does this make sense? More biased garbage from you, predictably.

Frazier looked incredible against Ali, but if we're comparing apples to apples, I'd say Frazier vs Stander or maybe Foster is a comparable performance. You'll have to compare them against no-hopers like Williams or Stander. Foster is actually pushing it because he's a live body and dangerous. Both fights are of course after Frazier's prime.

My pick would be Ellis. He makes the roof cave in on a very competent and capable fighter who took it to him as long as he could. This isn't comparable to Ali's performance against Williams of course because Williams had one foot in the grave at this point. See the Mathis or Quarry fights if you want to see prime Frazier. This isn't comparing fairly, because both fighters are better than Williams.

The last statement is absolutely outrageous. Please read that again and promptly slap yourself. Or throw yourself down a flight of stairs.

 

Yeah, give Ali his mythical prime but give Frazier his eyesight too. Regardless, I think it's still a 1-1 split.

 

For the record, I believe both Frazier and Ali were slightly past it equally as Joe had lost a step due to the injury and other health issues and Ali for reasons ALWAYS outlined...

I don't think Ali stopped moving because he had to or he didn't "have it" anymore in the FOTC, I think he was forced to. Enormous pressure and body shots will do the same thing. I'd prefer to give Frazier some credit in that. He's due it.

If this fight happens in '69, I'll take Frazier by decision or late stoppage. Same basic fight, just fought on a little higher scale, if that's even possible.

These guys would always bring out the best in one another.

 

If Ali fought Frazier two times in the 1960s they would be 1-1. If they fought three times before 1971 it would be 2-1 to Ali. Does it really matter what order the wins are in? Ali always wins the serries and Frazier was always good enough to win one fight.

 

How long would Frazier go with a prime Liston?:think

 

If you think taking 11 rounds to wear down the unranked Mathis was a quality performance I would have to question your objectivity.
The best Frazier I've seen was in FOTC ,and most would agree with me.

 

1967 Ali beats Frazier decisively .
The Ali we never saw of 68,69 ,70 does the same, probably by late tko.

 

the Ali "we never saw" would have been no better than the Ali we did see. Part of looking as good as Ali did was through being so active in 1966, something he would not have done without having the political problems he had. The second part of why he looked as good as he did was because Brian London, Big Cat WILLIAMS and zora Folley were a level below Joe Frazier. They had been hanging around top level since the late 1950s they were not as current or as fresh as Joe Frazier so it was easier to look better against them.. interestingly Mildenberger and Terrell gave more resistance and they were part of a newer era.

imagine Tyson eating up on Gerry Coony and Tex Cobb rather than Frank Bruno, Tucker and Biggs. I am not saying there was anything better for Ali in 66' but by 67-70 there was a new batch of fighters from his own generation coming through like Martin, Frazier, Spencer, Quarry, Bonnavena and Ellis that would not have allowed Ali to look quite so sparkling as he did wiping the floor with Williams and co.

 

Absolutely correct.

Anytime from 69 onwards Joe ALWAYS wins the first fight with Ali. He had never faced pressure like Joe brought, and the first time around he just didn't have an answer for it.

Simple as that.

 

Agree to disagree.

Everyone seems to think here that the prime 1960s Ali was always up on his toes to outbox his opponents which is false. He took rounds off and/or other moments in fights to sit down on his punches to land harder shots, especially trying to finish opponents.

I don't believe he would've KOed Frazier had they fought in 67, 68, or 69. A UD is no doubt within the cards for Ali but I don't believe it would be as wide and decisive as you may project here. Frazier was still learning but would have been one of Ali's toughest fights at that time IMO. He was his toughest fight his entire career. Also to note, Frazier moved better on his feet in the late 60s than he did in the FOTC.

I would think Frazier has the better chance of the knockout than Ali, especially considering Ali's weakness for the hook. Joe probably has Ali in a lot more danger if he lands the same kinda hook that Cooper did.