What if Frazier and Ali fought in the 60s?

Totally wrong.

No fighter put sustained pressure on Ali until Joe. Ali was totally confused in the FOTC because here he was doing everything he could, and Joe just soaked it up and kept lashing into that body ( which I and others firmly believe he would have been even more adept at had they fought in 69 )

With respect your opinion of Ali is revisionist at best, and fanboyish at worst, so I tend not to take your observations too seriously.

 

Every fighter came at Ali putting on pressure . Now you are trying to argue to what degree the pressure was. I lived through those times did you ? Revisionist usually are young and then look back on past events distorting them in process. This is what you are doing.

Frazier never fought prime Ali. Ali did fight prime or very close to prime Frazier. There is no doubt being inactive for those many years greatly diminished Alis speed and endurance. Everyone knew this at the time. Dundee stated this many times.

Ali is rated at the very top for a reason. Frazier is not for a reason.

Take away Ali staying on the ropes in fight one to rest and Joe does not win this fight. Ali would have had no reason to stay there if in prime shape. It was not until fight three that Joe started effectively cutting the ring on Ali. In fight one he was coming forward but not lagging that back foot making it far easier for prime Ali to evade his rushes.

 

Not are you only clueless, but you are presumptuous to the point of arrogance. I only watched the Clay June 63 Wembley fight with Cooper on TV, however I attended the May 66 rematch with Ali at Highbury Stadium ( as I indeed also attended the what was left of Frazier / Bugner fight at Earls Court in July 73. )

You may convince yourself of whatever you wish, but I am categorically stating that the Frazier of late 68, 69 was far nearer his prime, and had better footwork than the version of the FOTC.

Ali always needed rests in fights, even pre 67, whether it was going to the ropes or clinching, and Joe was always going to beat Ali to the body whichever one he chose.

That, and that alone is what did, and would at any time have slowed Ali down.

What was left of Joe in 74 and 75 isn't worth mentioning in the same sentence as the word prime.

Your selective use of Dundee quotes only re-enforces your lack of ability to face reality.

As in Dundee saying Ali fought Norton for ten rounds with a broken jaw ( which you don't acknowledge ) but clinging like a limpet to Dundee utterances claiming Ali's lay off severely affected his ability.

 

Post the in-between round footage of Ali sitting in corner after round two and show everyone any attention given to Alis jaw. I dare you. Nothing was done ..no ice pack...nothing. Alis jaw was broken in round 12 from a right hand. It was then and only then Ali bled through the mouth and was in visible pain. A broken jaw is very painful. No man could take the punches Ali took for 10 rounds with a jaw broken. Ken Norton stated after the bout until he died that the jaw breaking was done in round 12.

I was at Ali Norton 3 and saw all of the hwts including Ali many times in training. If you want to compare resumes I guarantee you will lose.

Once again...Frazier never met prime Ali...Ali met prime or very close to prime Frazier. Prime Ali could move and box for 15 rounds while the versions Joe met could NOT. Less time on the ropes means Joe wins less rounds...much less.

Frazier never cut the ring effectively until much later in his career. This was something Futch trained him to do and was seen in fight three.

Ali is rated at the very top for a reason. Joe is not for a reason.

 

All of the above is NOTHING more than your opinion.

I am telling you that the Frazier Ali fought in the FOTC was not in his prime.

I don't care less about what you saw in the Ali / Norton fight, both Dundee and Ali said his jaw was broken in the 2nd. Your opinion of how much punishment a fighter with a broken jaw cant take is worthless, as you are not said fighter, merely a spectator like anyone else.

As for your pissing contest about who has seen what fights, and whoever in training, I could care less.

I saw S.R.Robinson in training ( in Windsor ) for his July 51 fight against Randy Turpin, so you'll forgive me for not giving a **** about whatever comparatively useless Heavyweights float your boat.


You can scream and shout all you like about how Ali is rated. The FACT remains Joe Frazier was the first man to beat him, and NO ONE claimed Ali was anything like washed up at the time.

It is only SINCE that rather pathetic people like you have made their feeble excuses.

 

All ignorant statements....ignoring facts and just illustrating your hatred for Ali.

Ali fought closer to prime Frazier than Frazier fought prime Ali. No knowledgable boxing historian or trainer would ever disagree.

Once again I are you to post the in-between rounds 2and 3 film footage. I just watched it...no indication whatsoever that anything was wrong with Alis jaw. No attention was given to it and there were no visible signs of swelling.

 

Ffs grow up you fool.

Because people don't buy into your horse ****, and fanboyism your answer is " You all hate Ali "

What a pathetic little man you are. Funnily enough I just watched the fight again, and Ali claims he can't talk to Cossell in the ring afterwards due to sustaining a broken jaw in the FIRST round, never mind the 2nd.

Yet you, Ali's numero uno dick rider claims that is all garbage, because you and ONLY you KNOW it was broken in the 12th.

You seriously need to get a life.

Even more pathetic is your schoolboy claim that Frazier was " closer " to his prime than Ali.

For f&&ks sake man either they were in their primes or they weren't, the degree by which they were past them is neither here nor there.

This whole thread is about what would have happened if they'd met in the 60's with both in their primes.

You think Ali wins, some of us think he loses.

Get over it, silly little man.

 

Mercante's scorecard was terrible, just because he was "closer to the fighters than anybody" doesn't mean dick. He thought Frazier won rounds 4 and 14 and Ali won 6 and 7. He happened to luck into a reasonable scorecard.

 

Such an idiot. Your totally wrong so instead of manning up you again change the subject. Whether in round one or two the corner would be attending to it inbetween rounds two and three. They were not going anywhere near Alis jaw so again you are wrong.

Ali was way past his prime when he fought Frazier. Noone ever saw prime Ali. If Frazier did fight prime Ali more than likely Ali wins. Most historians and trainers I have ever spoken with agree.

 

IMO Joe Frazier gives any version of Ali nightmares, the guy was a machine. Ali was far from unhittable in his prime. He would punish him to the body and eventually start hurting him with head shots. George Chuvalo hospitalised Ali with body shots, so I have no doubt Joe would give him his hardest fight by far. Maybe Ali would have won on points, same goes to Frazier, but it would be no whitewash whatever the outcome.

 

Let us get this cleared up right here and now so that everyone can see what a fool you really are, ok?

You are stating, despite the words of Ali, and his handlers, who were in the ring at the verdict that they are all wrong, or liars, or both when they claim his jaw was broken in the 1st round. Is that correct?

Would you mind sharing your credentials with the rest of us ( other than your age ) that qualify you to KNOW that they are all wrong, and your version ( broken jaw in round 12 ) is the true version.

Your stupid opinion about his jaw not being treated immediately after the round ended is horse ****. So please spare us that one.

In fact do tell us exactly what the fvck any trainer can DO about a broken jaw other than stop the fight, einstein?

You are an idiot who has dug himself into a big man love hole, and just can't stop digging, as far as Ali is concerned.

 

I would love to know what Frazier thought of Ali before the whole draft thing. I think Ali made Frazier much better fighter overall. Ali would win for sure.

 

My credentials are....I know boxing....I know boxing much more than you. Been intimately involved in the sport since 1971. Known all the major trainers, met most all the top hwt contenders since that time, watched them train, went to many major bouts, belonged myself to several boxing gyms......I could go on.

A broken jaw is as painful an injury as any athlete could have. Along with a broken jaw there will be lots of swelling, pain. A corner would be applying ice packs in between rounds to keep swelling down. Look at the end of round two....nothing was done...no indication that Ali had any injury let alone something as major as a broken jaw. Where are the physical effects of that broken jaw? Please let everyone know.

Switch over to round 12. Norton lands that huge right and blood pours from Alis mouth. THERE is a visible effect...immediately Alis jaw swells...THERE is a visible effect.

Finally Norton said until his dying day that he felt he broke Alis jaw in round 12.

Ali lost a fight he should have and was expected to win. My feeling always was the broken jaw in round two story was a way to make an excuse for losing. In fact Ali trained poorly for the bout and was at a party the night before...this is how little he thought of Norton going into the bout.

One more time....show everyone the effects of that broken jaw in round two during the minutes rest before round three. Why is Alis jaw not swollen? No blood. Why is his corner not going near Alis jaw aside from putting in and out his mouthpiece. How could Ali go 10 more rounds with a broken jaw that was being hit every single round by Norton. Answer the questions...show proof as I have.