What if Frazier and Ali fought in the 60s?

There was no mention of Alis mouth bleeding until the last minute of round 12.

The camera is on Ali for just about the entire rest period between rounds 11 and 12. He is breathing heavy, talking. As the bell rings he takes water and spits it out. The water does not appear red as if tainted with blood. Noone goes near his jaw....just like after round 2.

About mid round 12 ali is hit by a right hand and immediately gets defensive. Few seconds later Cosell states Alis mouth is bleeding. Thats the first time in the bout this was mentioned by anyone at ringside.

Pacheko tells Cosell mid fight that Ali has a broken tooth.

No evidence that Alis jaw was broken in round 2. No blood, no attention given to it by Alis doctor.....nothing.

Again...all this is very old news. Noone bought Alis claim that his jaw was broken in rounds one or two. Ali was not prepared for the fight and this was one of the avenues his people used as an excuse.

 

Yes, but then again, he was asked whether or not he knew Ali suffered a broken jaw in the 1st round. That was the question, his response isn't exactly precise.

 

Alis camp initially stated the first round then later changed it to the second round.

 

Did Arthur Abrahams mouth bleed when his jaw was broken in two places?

Was the man who did it Edison Miranda even aware that it had happened , let alone in what round?

I don't have a horse in this race , but from where I sit you are the one employing twisted logic, and it appears to be tailor made to fit your own agenda.

 

In round two of the fight, (see actual video below) Norton’s jab forced Ali back into a corner. ;Norton then blasted Ali with a straight right hand, landing it precisely at the point of Ali’s jaw where he had lost two back teeth way before the event. Ali’s mouth was slightly open at the moment of impact. All of these factors combined with Norton’s power are what many considered to be what fractured the bone of arguably the world’s most mouthy boxer.

Angelo Dundee realized immediately what had happened, “I asked him (Ali) to let me stop the fight,” Dundee remembered. “He said, ‘no, I can beat this sucker. He won’t touch my jaw.” Ali fought for another 10 rounds losing in a points decision.

 

I've never read that it was discounted ,who are these fight figures that came to this conclusion?

No evidence supports the view that it happened in the 12 th round, or at least you have not produced any.

 

Muhammad Ali's cornerman, Wali Muhammad, didn't see the punch that broke the former champion's jaw during his March 1, 1973, fight with Ken Norton. Nobody did. Watching tape of the fight, there is no decisive blow, no jaw-dropping moment to rewind and replay frame by frame.

But though he didn't see the blow, there was no denying the blood.

Wali had lived a full life, improbably an assistant to both Sugar Ray Robinson and Malcolm X before joining Ali's camp in 1965, and he had seen a lot of things—but never anything quite like this.

"I was taking out the mouthpiece and there was more and more blood on it," he told Ali's biographer Thomas Hauser in Muhammad Ali: His Life and Times.

"My bucket with the water and ice in it became red. In every other fight, between rounds, I’d take the mouthpiece out and put it in the bucket and there was just slobber on it. But here, after each round, I had to shake the mouthpiece to get all the blood out of it into the water.”

 

"Funny, the jaw didn't hurt so much in the fight," Ali later told Sports Illustrated's Tex Maule. "Under all the heat and the excitement, you don't feel it. Like a man in a street fight. He get cut in the stomach, fights on with his guts hangin' out and don't feel nothin' until he gets to the hospital."


His surgeon recalled things differently. After wiring Ali's jaw shut, Dr. Gary Manchester told the media, "It was a very bad break. The bone which was broken had three or four jagged edges. The edges kept poking into his mouth. He had so much pain during the fight that he's totally exhausted right now."

Norton's trainer, Eddie Futch, a man who previously led Frazier to a win over the seemingly unbeatable Ali, thought he had the legend's number.

"He has serious deficiencies which his speed enables him to overcome, like a pretty girl being able to overcome the fact she's not smart," Futch told Los Angeles Times columnist Jim Murray. "He never learned to respect his trade because he never had to. When he loses his speed even journeyman fighters will beat him."

 

A San Diego,[Nortons home town] newspaper the same day of the fight said it happened in the first round.Dundee said he wanted to stop the fight in the second round. He cites the commision doctor as telling him the jaw was broken.

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When the verdict was announced, Ali, also known as Cassius Clay, accepted it stoically. He hurried to his dressing room rather than the post fight interview area and remained there for about half an hour. He and his camp then suddenly departed for Flower Fifth Avenue Hospital.



X-rays of his severely swollen jaw would eventually show Ali’s jawbones were separated by a quarter of an inch. However, at the time, Ali was actually released from the hospital after 40 minutes and left without any bandages.

Even with an anonymous "lose or else" death threat before the match, Joe Frazier settled the world heavyweight championship bout in part by cracking the jawbone of the famous boxer in the second round.

Ali later said that in the heat of the fight he barely felt the injury. In fact, he actually claimed to have been troubled almost as much by his lack of fitness.

Some time later, Ali went through a 90-minute operation on his jaw and the surgeon who rewired it said: “I can’t fathom how he could go the whole fight like that.”

 

It wasn't discounted by anyone of any importance, that claim is just Houdini's perverted logic to suit his agenda.

 

That isn't strictly true. It went like this.

Q1. Were you aware that you broke Ali's jaw in the first round?
A. No I wasn't.

Q2. Were you aware that you'd hurt him?
A. I knew I hurt him once or twice, but I wasn't aware his jaw was broken.

Q3. Did he hurt you at all.

I don't think that line of questioning was solely pertaining to the 1st round to be fair.

 

Plenty of evidence.

No bleeding seen or mentioned until round 12. Last minute of the fight Ali gets hit on the button with the best right hand of the night and blood fills his mouth.

No attention given to Alis jaw at the end of the second or 11th rounds. A Dr. In Alis corner and nothing is done. No ice pack...nothing. how is that possible with Ali supposedly having a complete fracture of his jaw?

Pacecko states Ali has a broken tooth during round eight.

If indeed it occurred in round one why say it happened in round one then change it to round two? It happened to Ali and he and the corner know when he informed them of it being broken. So why change the round?

Read Ring and BI from the time of the fight. They did not buy the idea Alis jaw was broken early. Read the Daily News and NY Times did not buy it. Ask trainers from that time..they dont buy it.

The question really is where is the evidence it was broken in round one or two? Norton did land some good shots on Ali in round two but no attention was paid to Alis jaw at rounds end. Ali did not seem in distress at rounds end and certainly noone at ringside noticed any blood.

So aside from Alis camp saying it was broken in rounds one or round two....where is the physical evidence that it was? There isnt any.

 

Well, it appears that the belief was this happened in the 1st round, after all Norton is being asked minutes after the fight if he was aware of breaking Ali's jaw in that particular round. However, I don't buy that whole "I wanted to stop the fight but Ali wouldn't let me" story.