What if Holmes ko1 Ali?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by GoldenHulk, Oct 9, 2007.


  1. GoldenHulk

    GoldenHulk Boxing Addict Full Member

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    We all know about Ali's ill fated 1980 comeback against Larry Holmes.
    Ali lost about 50 lbs, dyed his hair looked great, but when the bell rang, he was nothing more than an empty shell. After taking a one sided beating for 11 rounds, it was mercifully stopped. Of course this loss didn't hurt Ali's legacy because he was old, and way past his prime, and all those rounds that he lasted with Holmes showed this. Holmes beat an old man, an Ali who was no where near his prime, and who shouldnt have even fought Holmes.
    But say if in the very first round, before the fight was even 3 minutes old, Ali got nailed, went down, and took a ten count. I wonder if his place in history would be greatly affected. Personally I think it would, because if that scenario happened, people would forever say was he washed up, or did Holmes just knock him cold. And in a scenario such as this i think most people would agree that Ali just got knocked out, because the fight wasnt long enough for people to see a real erosion of his boxing skills. What do you think?
     
  2. TBooze

    TBooze Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I think people would hate Holmes even more. People said anyway Holmes had no class, but he could always point to the Ali fight where he showed perhaps the most class there has ever been in a big fight to carry Ali 10 rounds, and probably 15 if Dundee had not used his common sense.
     
  3. GoldenHulk

    GoldenHulk Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I totally agree with you about people hating Holmes even more if he Ko'd Ali in the first.
    My question though, is many boxing historians consider Ali the greatest heavyweight of all time, but if he had a ko by 1 on his record, I think he would still be in the top 10, but Louis, Marciano, Dempsey, Johnson, and Tunney would be rated higher.
     
  4. sweet_scientist

    sweet_scientist Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Perhaps to a small extent, but with the layoff, and his age as it was, together with how **** he had looked in previous bouts, I don't think it would have been a big stretch for people to rationalise the loss away as next to meaningless to his legacy.

    It wouldn't have been like a Roy Jones moment where suddenly his legacy would be dramatically altered after a ko loss. Ali had already answered every question asked of his chin up until that point, he had already proved how tough he was (whereas Roy always had that question mark).

    I suppose you'd always have a few cynics who'd question Ali's legacy if Holmes Ko'ed him in the 1st round, but I think the majority would pretty much regard him as they do now.
     
  5. ron u.k.

    ron u.k. Boxing Addict banned

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    i don't think it would have made any difference other than merely emphasise how washed up he was.as for any hating of holmes it's something i can't understand.i'm a big ali fan but recognise holmes as a great fighter,probably have him in the top 3 heavies ever.
     
  6. cuchulain

    cuchulain Loyal Member Full Member

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    It would definitely have hurt his legacy somewhat.

    just look at what some fools say about Roy (who should have been retired before Tarver 2.
     
  7. Duodenum

    Duodenum Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Ali would have been accused of taking a dive, and there would be a major investigation. The notion of him taking a dive might very well have affected his legacy the way Duran's eight million dollar tank job in New Orleans did him.

    For Ali to take a legimate ten count in a single round against Holmes, the acronym KO would have to have been accompanied by DOA. Muhammad was not RJJ. His toughness had long since been established.
     
  8. Chaney

    Chaney Mystery and Imagination Full Member

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    It would not have affected Ali's legacy any more than the miserable one-sided beating Ali recieved from Holmes.

    Ali was obviously a shell of himself for quite some time.

    Manilla is the last worthwhile Ali performance.

    The Shavers bout the last dying spark of a once great fighter.

    Spinks did Ali's legacy damage, losing to such a raw novice like that. Ali wasn't any better in the rematch...but Spinks had hardly trained at all and came into the fight with nothing. He lost the fight rather than Ali winning it.

    So Ali vs Holmes was always going to be a dreadful end to a once great fighter, which ever way Ali lost it. Any serious boxing fan (rather than Ali fan) knew that Ali was washed up and should have retired years before.
     
  9. dmille

    dmille We knew, about Tszyu, before you. Full Member

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    By not wanting to hurt Ali, I think Larry hurt him more in the long run by putting a sustained beating on him.

    If Holmes had attacked full out in the first like he did in the eighth, the fight would have been over in one or two and no one would have questioned it.

    And after a true @ss whipping, Ali wouldn't have come back for one more with Trever Berbick.
     
  10. Duodenum

    Duodenum Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Within the last few days, I reviewed Ali/Spinks II in it's entirety, and Cosell never hesitated to accurately point out the myriad ways in which Ali had deteriorated, even in a match Muhammad handily dominated from beginning to end. The only item of interest we get out of Muhammad continuing his career after Manila is knowedge of the unbridled supremacy Shavers possessed in punching power.

    Some have suggested that Ali should have concluded his career after Kinshasa, but 1975 was one of the greatest years any heavyweight champion has ever produced, establishing him as the division's last great 15 round ironman.
     
  11. Duodenum

    Duodenum Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I suspect that if Larry had Eddie Futch in his corner, instead of Ritchie Giachetti, it may well have been his approach to eliminate Muhammad ASAP.

    Dempsey took mercy on his friend Miske by getting him out as quickly as possible, and Louis did the same for his pal John Henry Lewis. Once upon a time, the more vindictive thing to do was carry an opponent.

    True enough, damage to the brain and body is caused by an accumulation of blows, more often than a few big shots.

    However, I don't believe there was any way to avert Ali's decision to face Berbick. Holmes had messed up Ali's face. If the possiblilty of Muhammad's vanity being offended again wasn't enough to stop him from trying once more, then I doubt anything Larry did would have made any difference.


    Now in Griffith/Paret II, if Emile had gone all out to stop Benny, instead of squandering the WW title back to Paret, then Benny might have retired then and there, instead of making the disastrous attempt to move up against Fullmer. Was Griffith responsible for killing Paret? By letting Benny regain his championship, this may indeed have been the case. Griffith/Paret III sould never have been signed to begin with.
     
  12. Rattler

    Rattler Middle Aged Man Full Member

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    Nothing really changes with this outcome.

    Holmes wasn't popular before the actual fight or after it. The level of dislike would've varied more or less, but the same inevitable feeling would always exist.

    As for Ali, it wouldn't change anything else either. He was far past finished. Whether he gets pasted quick or worn out slowly, he still loses and goes out with a whimper and receives empathy for his troubles.

    The effect of a first round KO is negligible at best.
     
  13. Bill1234

    Bill1234 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    :good
     
  14. MagnificentMatt

    MagnificentMatt Beterbiev literally kills Plant and McCumby 2v1 Full Member

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    Ever read his chapter in the book "Ali 15 Fighters, 15 Stories", well, that is when i found out, he truly is an ******* rofl.
     
  15. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    Ali did not win one minute of the fight. Holmes easily outclassed a past his prime Ali. Ali got in what appeared to be good shape to fight Holmes, but the Ali’s skills, stamina and speed were long gone.

    I beleive Dundee made the right call and stopped the fight at the prefect time for Ali. Holmes was really coming on. It looked like Ail would be down in another two rounds or so, and likely counted out shortly there after. By stopping the fight, Dundee saved Ali from ending up like Joe Louis.

    Ali was an absolute punk in the fight. He delayed the stat of the match with excessive taunting. Howard Cosell had the call. Midway though the fight, Holmes was in clear control. Ali was reduced to trying to land a counter right hand. At one point Ali decided to open up his mouth and talk trash. Cosell quipped, " And Ail is still taunting Holmes! " then Holmes lands a combination on que, and Cosell’s tone changes as he says, " but they fight with gloves, not words "

    After the fight Holmes was confronted by a lady who said she hates him. Holmes was perplexed and said but why? Because you knocked out Ali. Holmes reply was, “ I'm sorry lady but it was either him or me. “

    In hind sight, I feel Holmes did what he had to do, and really did not want to hurt Ali.