What if Joe Fraizer retired after beating Ali?

Foreman might have beaten an unprepared Ali but he would always lose the rematch.

I think Frazier would be happier if he hadn't fought Foreman. I think those one sided losses really hurt him emotionally. I suspect that losing in such a one sided manner twice and especially with Cossell's "down goes Frazier" line really emotionally affected him. I remember watching a clip of Foreman, Frazier and Ali on some British talk show in the late 80's and the idiot boxing "expert" brought up how one sided the Foreman- Frazier fight was. Frazier joked about it but looked embarrassed. I felt bad for him watching that.

I suspect Joe would be rated top 5 of all time at heavy had he retired after Ali 1. But there would be a lot of question marks whether he could handle big skilled modern super heavies.

Still, i suspect he would have been a lot happier for the rest of his life had he not run into Big George. Foreman was a bad style match up for him. In both fights, Frazier only landed a handful of left hooks. Foreman blocked, partially blocked or evaded majority of Frazier's left hooks, leaving him with 0 offensive weapons. Joe had a solid right to the body but he just couldn't land big rights to the head with any consistency. It made it too predictable vs Foreman as he only had one punch (left hook) to worry about defensively.

I sort of wish Frazier fought and beat Lyle instead.

 

I man, anyone who fought Frazier knew they basically only had two punches to worry about defensively -- left hook to the everything, straight right to the body, with the left hook being the main weapon. And against everyone not named Foreman, it didn't matter, they were still beaten to a pulp by both (even Ali when he won the rematches).

Frazier just didn't have a way of dealing with a guy who wouldn't let him close. For a sort of similar example, look at the later rounds in Lewis-Tyson. Tyson, to his credit, kept trying, but he just had no way to get to Lewis and just got punished for his efforts every time. Just an inherent problem to a short swarmer going up against a strong tall guy.

 

I agree. But the difference with Foreman was that Joe couldn't get close without eating huge punches or being shoved off by the physically stronger man. Foreman had unusually good defense vs left hooks - we normally don't think of young George as a defensive guy but he knew how to block left hooks.

Lewis-Tyson is an interesting comparison. Tyson really struggled to get close but that had a lot to do with his weight (weighing a enormous 234 lbs, which was 15-20 lbs higher than his peak weight) and the fact that he no longer had his fast feet to close the distance. I don't believe Lewis would have so easily kept a younger faster version off him for so long.

Whereas i can't see any version of Frazier being able to get close to Foreman.

 

If Frazier retired after the FOTC he would be in the top five as he wouldn't have the two losses against Ali and the two wallopings by George Foreman.

 

The Tunney effect kicks in.

 

Of course. They both expected an easy and quick fight. an easy victory, just like the previous ones. Fury had a similar approach to Ngannou. it makes a huge difference - the right attitude. Some are preparing for battle, others for execution. Today we believe, in the context of their entire careers, that they simply lost to better boxers, but this does not have to be true.
If Chagaev had won against Wlad in the same way as Ross Purritty, no one would have said it was a coincidence even if it had been. we would simply assume that Ruslan had his number or was a better boxer. If Tyson had hit Lewis with a punch like McCall or Rahman, we would have thought that he was simply better and not that he had a lucky punch. If John Ruiz had fought the same fights as Lewis against Holyfield in 1999, we would never have considered it an ATG victory. Ali is much more appreciated for winning against Foreman than Jimmy Young. Although for me Jimmy won just as clearly and against an equally strong or maybe stronger Georg

 

I've read the stuff about him ' nearly dying '
Yet didn't one judge have him winning it 11- 4 ?
I haven't watched the fight in a while , but did he really take THAT much punishment from Ali ?

 

not really. Most of the fight was him beating the hell out of Ali. It really wasn’t a close fight.

but Frazier had big health problems and the fight left him bad off. He had major untreated high blood pressure, for one.