What if Johnson and Jeffries

When would you say that Johnsons prime was?

Some people felt that he was slightly past his best when he won the title, though iot could be argued.

 

Johnson definitly had more skill then many..but i reject the idea that he did anything in any way like Ali hops or duran....or honestly corbett

 

It's a pick 'em fight around 1905, or prime-for-prime.

 

I think you are crazy if you think Johnson was stronger and the better grappler...by all reports Jefferies was one of the strongest boxers ever...and often trained with world class wrestlers to work on his clinch strength.

On the outside Johnson would have the advantage..but I see nothing in his footwork to suggest to me that he would keep it on the outside...I think he gets few pot shots in from the outside..but jeffries mostly closes the distance....they have a ugly close fight at close quarters,which a prime jeffries wins do largely to freaskish strength.

 

I believe Johnson was a very late bloomer, he was 30 before he got his title shot, and grew into his frame late, his best weight was 208lbs.

We do not have Johnson's weight for the 1905 Hart fight , but a year later , [1906], he scaled 185lbs for his fight with Langford. Two years after ,in his title challenge he scaled 192lbs, at the age of 30.

Two years on, in, what he described as the best shape of his life, he weighed 208lbs.

Film shows he carried no surplus at all in this fight.
So, I can't accept that Johnson was prime for Hart, when he likely scaled under 190lbs,[maybe even under 185lbs].


Jeffries in contrast was extremely precocious.


Punch stats?

Watching Jeffries against Sharkey ,they are both very pedestrian ,indeed Sharkey is the instigator of the action,Jeffries the reactor.
Jeffries looks more active against Ruhlin ,and pursues his man , but he was hardly Dempsey/Frazier/Tyson , in attack.

Jeffries would give Johnson a terrific fight , it very possibly could be a titanic struggle, my money would be on Jack ,but I have no problem with anyone picking Jeffries ,only with some of the criteria they base the outcome on.

 

This appears very reasonable to me.

 

J , please see my reply to H. E. Grant.

 

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Part 2

Johnson did not offer Jeanette, McVey or Langford a title match while he was champion, though there is little doubt they all were far better fighters once Johnson became champ. Each man certainly deserved one title shots over the white hope crew. They myth that Johnson could not fight a black man is just that. In Parris, Johnson could have fought any man he chose. Johnson fought black journeyman Jim “ battling “ Johnson in Parris for the title. Jack withdrew due to injury, but kept his title after 10 rounds. The fight was scheduled for 20 or 10 rounds depending on your source. It ended in 10 as a draw!

I also think Johnson gets tons of credit for beating Langford, though Sam was only 156 pounds for the fight, while Johnson was 30+ pounds heavier at near physical peak.

Jeanette picked up boxing at the age of 25. He lost his first three fights, and then fought Jack Johnson, a man with over 50 fights! Amazing.

The two meet again in 1905 Jeanette was still green with 13 fights under his belt, and having never gone past 7 rounds. Amazing, he defeated Johnson, a man 60 fights! Johnson lost via DQ, which in those days often happened a fighter was hurt and wanted out of a match. Yes--Johnson was hurt in round one, and went low in round two unpurpose. I can not recall one all time great at heavyweight who had 60 fights, and lost to another guy who official record was 4-4-1.

By the time Jeanette was experienced and ready, Johnson wanted nothing to do with him. Indeed, even though Johnson got the better of a very green Jeanette, the fights were close enough to suggest that a more experience Jeanette could have won in Johnson's championship years.

A historian should embrace the truth. My opinion has evolved over the years by accepting the truth. In all honesty when I first started watching boxing ( Way before the internet ) I used to rank Johnson extremely high because that was what the media gave me. That was years ago. I have learned a lot since. I believe that if you deny the truth, you really aren't being honest with yourself. If you deny the truth you will limit your learning. If you choose to research, you will also find that Johnson beat up on a very green Sam McVey early in McVey's career. Heck, the first time they meet 1903 Johnson was a full grown man with 42 fights. McVey? He was a teenager with a mere 7 fights! So of coruse Johnson won. Then Johnson won decision vs McVey in 1903, and finally knocked him out in the 20th round in their final meeting in 1904. McVey was a mere 20 years of age when the final match happened.

In the entire series of fights between McVey, Jeanette, and Langford , which I'm too lazy to count right now, Johnson scored a grand total of ONE knockout. To my knowledge there were not films of these fights, so the theory that Johnson held back for the movies doesn't hold water. Many of these fights were for the colored championship. As unfair as the tile sounds, it was a meal ticket that any African American would strive to attain in that era. I doubt fighters simply went thought the motions in title stakes matches.

When Langford, Jeanette, and McVey matured as fighters, Johnson avoided all of them like the bubonic plague. As boxing fans we were robbed! Just imagine how good these fights could have been. Now that light has been shed on the topic, perhaps some will view history for what it was. Other may attempt to spin, but with all the facts and the dates, there really isn't any logical direct rebuttal other than, yes a very experienced Johnson beat very green versions of Jeanette and McVey, and he fought Langford once when Langford was 156 pounds

5 ) As I pointed out, Johnson had a shaky 1905. He lost to the two best fighters he fought in 1905. They were a very green Joe Jeanette and solid, but not special Marvin Hart. However, there was an interesting fight in 1905 vs Young Peter Jackson. Young Peter Jackson was a small fighter. He stood 5'6" tall, and started his career at 130 pounds. Young Peter Jackson's best stuff was likely as a welter or middle. In 1905 he was matched vs Jack Johnson. Young Peter Jackson's record in his last 6 fights coming into the match was 1-4-1 !
Box Rec reports that:
Quote:
Johnson defends world 'colored' heavyweight title
"At its conclusion no decision was given. Johnson had undertaken to knock Jackson out within twelve rounds or take the smaller end of the receipts. He failed to do so." (Durango Democrat)

So let me understand this correctly. There was an incentive for Johnson to knock out a 5'6" opponent. He had 12 rounds, and failed to do so. As a heavyweight, Johnson should be embarrassed.

To extend the thread a bit, Johnson wasn't done with shaky performances past 1905. In 1906 he fought a 10 round draw with Billy Dunning. Has anyone every heard of Dunning? Box rec reports that Dunning's career record was 1-3-2. Dunning died from ring injuries in his last fight. Clearly Dunning was not a force at all, yet he took the legendary Jack Johnson, a man with far more experience ten rounds in a fight that was ruled a draw.

 

A third contender was Billy Dunning, a former firefighter for Great Northern Paper Co. in Millinocket. He had been dubbed the “Sawmill Champ” in a headline in the Bangor Daily News on March 5, 1909, back when rumors were swirling that he might meet Johnson for the world title.
These rumors were the result of what had happened on Labor Day 1906. Through some fluke of fate, Dunning had fought Johnson to a draw in Millinocket. Many people did not take the exhibition seriously because it looked like Johnson was giving Billy an easy time.
Later, Johnson told a reporter he had been warned by the local police not to knock out Billy. By November 1910, Dunning had been badly beaten by both Leon and McCormack, and many people joked about his draw with Johnson.

 

Jeffries wins

 

You don't have to knock someone out to win. You are suggesting an excuse based on a rumor. Johnson lived life on his own terms and often broke laws. Are you suggesting that Johnson obeyed a suggestion by the local police? Johnson tells a pack of lies through out his career. You prefer to quote Johnson when an excuse is needed to suit your rooting interest, but seldom quote Johnson fails to do the reverse.

Example: Johnson clearly states Hart whipped him, and Langford knocked him down.

As I said before, Johnson had financial incentive to KO a much smaller 5'6" former lightweight in Young Peter Jackson in 12 rounds. The one thing we might agree on with Johnson is he loved money. Yet he failed to stop a fighter who started out as a lightweight in 12 rounds??? Damage control time.

 

When Johnson fought Jeffries he man handled him and used tricks like twisting his arms behind his back. As you age strength is the last thing to go, you actually get stronger in age if anything, so if Jeffries was stronger and the better inside fighter it would have showed when they fought. So the fact Johnson was able to manhandle Jeffries suggests he always would

Not only that but Johnson has that sneaky uppercut he'd hit Jeffries time and again, Jeffries inside punching isn't as short or nearly effective

 

Disagree big time with you here. Jeffries had zero business being in that ring. He was 35, had been inactive for over five years, had a poor training camp with nominal sparring, had zero tune up fights, lost at least sixty pounds in a short time , fought in brutal heat against an active champion near his own physical prime. To gage that Jeffries as anything but a hollow shell at best is absurd. IF were going to have honest debate ( this is not a Marciano thread) lets at least keep rational perspective ...