What if Ken Norton retired after losing to Larry Holmes?

Yes. Ken's often said that he never felt quite the same after Yankee Stadium '76.

 

Ken would still be dogged by who he was steered clear of during the 1970's.

Frazier didn't really have the timeline for defending against a ready top shelf puncher during his prime. Jerry Quarry's elimination of Mac Foster in what may well have been Mac's career best performance drove the stake into Mac being the Foster who would get to challenge Joe before 1970 was out. Shavers and Lyle didn't begin their rise until Smoke's prime had passed.

Being a great heavyweight and dominant champion or contender means being ready, willing and able to take on and defeat all comers. Norton only did this when he had to face Foreman for a title shot. Because of what George did to Ken, questions would have always remained about how Norton would have done against Shavers or Lyle between Foreman and Ali III.

Joe wasn't afraid of anybody (no sane person would question that with his rematch of George), but within his prime, Mac Foster was the only prominent contender with power that Jerry Quarry reported immediately after as being top shelf.

It's overlooked today, but with Jerry providing ringside commentary, Norton did not look good against Larry Middleton, and the bogus final round stoppage was really for salvaging Ali-Norton III. (Yes, it took Frazier nine rounds to stop Jimmy Ellis in their rematch ahead of Manila, but that was a situation where Joe really needed the additional rounds to extend himself with the competitive rounds Ali was piling up in 1975.)

Let's give Ken the decision over Ali in Yankee Stadium, for the sake of argument. Care to guess who Norton's first challenger is likely to be? Foreman wouldn't have to jump through the Jimmy Young hoop, Ken would have to prove to the public he could beat a man who had crushed him in two rounds a couple years earlier. George's confidence, previously shattered by Ali in Kinshasa, would now be in overdrive at the prospect of easily regaining the heavyweight title.

Had Jerry Quarry dethroned Foreman in 1973 (as I believe JQ would have), he'd have been an extremely popular but transitional champion, only sitting on that throne while Ali-Frazier II decided that Ali would take the title back from Jerry. Nobody would buy Jerry as the world's best heavyweight after Ali-JQ II. Likewise for Norton after winning Ali III in Yankee Stadium.

This thread was created because of how much Ken benefits from losing Ali III. He gets awarded that decision, he doesn't get the luxury of ducking Foreman, Shavers or Lyle, George gets to him first as the initial challenger, and Norton retires long before Holmes rises up to top contention.

 

I don't think he ducked Ron Lyle. Where does that come from?

He agreed to face Ron Lyle in 1977, and Muhammad Ali was contracted to fight Duane Bobick.
But Ali cancelled the Bobick fight (MSG actually sued him) and Bobick was pushed into fighting Norton.

Bobick was actually rated higher than Lyle. Bobick was ranked #4 contender by RING magazine, the top 5 were :
1. Foreman
2. Norton
3. Young
4. Bobick
5. Lyle

Ali was defending against Evangelista.

Young beat Foreman.
Norton beat Bobick and then beat Young.

There's more truth in saying "Ali ducked Bobick" than "Norton ducked Lyle".

Unless I'm missing something ?

 

Well, I don't think he fought Lyle either. He was managed and matched brilliantly, steered deftly through the minefield of Shavers/Lyle type bombers, and promoted intelligently. Ron, on the other hand, was a super badass who took on anybody and everybody. He'd already died twice in prison, but wasn't even afraid to look bad and be embarrassed.

Yes, I do recall this, and the outcome would have had a tremendous impact on the historical standing of both. A huge disappointment for me, but again, not within the Foreman-Norton/Ali Norton III time frame, when proving he could beat a slugger of Lyle's potency could have gotten him to another title shot faster after the debacle in Caracas. (Frazier somehow wins Foreman II by drowning George late, he gets another shot at Ali in late 1976/early 1977, doesn't win, but retires with a nice payday.)

Unfortunate, because Duane would have had a chance to get warmed up against Ali and gone for the body, while Muhammad's superior skills and straighter punching decided matters in his favor. It might have been Ali's most entertaining post Manila win though. Meanwhile, Norton-Bobick produced a completely unpredictable and atypical outcome for Ken

It's a decent ranking of names from 1976, notwithstanding the Ring issued them during the Gnat Loubet/Johnny "Bought, Caught" Ort era, and Evangelista was ranked an unjustified eighth when Ali defended against him the following year, but Muhammad's final successful defense was over a challenger who himself agrees Ali defeated him, a challenger Norton never would have had a prayer at surviving. (In fact, Ali would never recover from Shavers, while I think his sharp condition for Dunn suggests Manila did not take as much out of him as Cosell's dramatic narrative after the fact has proclaimed.)

 

Good insight on the era from Anubis.

 

Your time line is a bit inaccurate.

If Norton would have beaten Ali in late September 1976 he more than likely WOULD NOT have fought Foreman a second time. Only five months later Foreman lost to Young. Norton probably would not have defended his title until later on in 77 waiting for the winner of the Young Foreman bout which would be Young. (Norton was no dummy). So Norton fights Young and wins then fights Holmes and loses.

 

Anubis points out that Ring's 1977 ratings are justifiably suspect. As a comparison, here's World Boxing's (magazine) ratings from their May 1977 issue, likely compiled in January -

World Boxing - May 1977
(as of January ?, 1977)

World Champion:
Muhammad Ali
1. George Foreman
2. Ken Norton
3. Jimmy Young
4. Duane Bobick
5. Larry Holmes
6. Joe Bugner
7. Earnie Shavers
8. Ron Lyle
9. Howard Smith
10. Alfredo Evangelista
11. Dino Dennis
12. Leroy Jones
13. Stan Ward
14. Chuck Wepner
15. Bernardo Mercado

And here's a link to an AP newspaper article from December 76 on Norton-Lyle.
https://news.google.com/newspapers?...AIBAJ&sjid=ASMIAAAAIBAJ&pg=3974,1023170&hl=en

 

Not buyin' it. George stopped Denis a couple weeks after Ali-Norton III. The pressure on Ken to prove himself as a legitimate champion against Foreman after what George had done to Norton in Caracas would have been too much for Ken to put off, especially with the controversy over his rubber match with Ali being reversed. Norton was no dummy, but he would then have failed to impress with either Middleton or Ali, and been in desperate need of a promotable defense and big win. No Foreman-Agosto, and no Foreman-Young.

Ken's win over Ali in NYC would have been further disparaged with the dismissal that Ali was shot after Manila. It's a business, and no other defense would have been salable for Norton besides George. The HW Champion can't be rejected as an overt coward, and with the manner of Ken's trashing by Foreman in Caracas, Norton would have had no alternative for an initial defense. George wouldn't need to fight again after Denis for his challenge of Ken, especially after Frazier II.

 

No way. I lived through that time and watched ALL of those bouts live...precedings and aftermath. Foreman did not just walk into the ring against Young without signing a contract for the bout and that contract was signed months in advance. If Norton beats Ali a few days shy of October 77 he is NOT stepping in to fight the man who koed him in two rounds A FEW MONTHS LATER. More than likely Ken would have signed to fight Ali again for probably a five million buck payday. Absolutely no doubt Ali would have gotten a rematch mid to late 77. In between Foreman gets beat by Young and retires.

 

76 not 77.

 

If I am not mistaken Ken would have been heavyweight champ but Leon Spinks refused to fight him even though Norton was ranked #1. My guess is, some of Don Kings "crookery"

 

Spinks gave Ali a rematch rather than Norton a shot and his title was stripped. Can't strip the title Spinks had however. Norton as such was never champion.

Thems the breaks. Historically the former champion deserves the rematch as he would be No 1 behind the new champion. The WBC however gave Norton No 1 status due to his close loss to Ali in 76. Unpresidented BS.

 

Norton got gypped out of the title, first losing the decision in Yankee Stadium, and then being denied first shot at Leon Spinks, which he deserved and whom he would have dismantled in short order.

Ali's popularity, unfortunately, really screwed other guys --mainly Norton, but you can argue others-- out of their legacy. So what if Norton might have lost to Foreman again....at least he'd have been a lineal champ and would always be remembered as the man Ali couldn't figure out.

 

Absolutely agree:good

 

Follow the money. Ali would have been Norton's first defense. The rematch would have been too lucrative to avoid. George would of had to wait, likely disimbued of the belief that he had to prove that he could go the distance which he claimed was reason he let Jimmy Young off the hook. . . .