What if Muhammad Ali (Cassius Clay) never was?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by TBooze, Oct 7, 2007.

  1. TBooze

    TBooze Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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  2. Nemesis

    Nemesis Well-Known Member Full Member

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    ;)
     
  3. TBooze

    TBooze Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I cannot see Martin beating Liston in 65/66, but if they fought, maybe it would of saved Banks...
     
  4. laxpdx

    laxpdx Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I don't think boxing would be nearly as popular as it became, if not cease to exist altogether. Ali revolutionized the whole sport.
     
  5. amy

    amy If you know what I mean Full Member

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    Then ESPNC would HAVE to play something else. :deal
     
  6. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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  7. OLD FOGEY

    OLD FOGEY Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Liston is the most interesting. He would have held the championship a while longer, I think, but the films show an aging and visibly slowing fighter. If he blew the championship in 1965 or 1966 to Terrell or Chuvalo or Bonavena, his reputation might be a lot lower today. With Sonny getting old, training haphazardly, and believing his own clippings, such an upset might not be off the charts.

    If Liston might be the big loser, I see Holmes as the big winner. If Young doesn't get to Foreman, Holmes might have, and a win over a prime George would have been Larry's signature victory and cemented a position at least in the top four or so for even his doubters.
     
  8. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    I think that after the second Patterson fight Liston was a 42/1 upset waiting to happen.

    Once you start messing with your training I don't care who you are you are going down.
     
  9. C. M. Clay II

    C. M. Clay II Manassah's finest! Full Member

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    Foreman probably would have held the title for the longest out of anyone in that period.

    Until 1969.

    Joe Frazier.

    Until 1973 when Foreman beats him.

    He might be considered the same. Having a win over Liston would make up for the rivalry with Ali.

    He would reign until 1978. Holmes would beat him, but Foreman would win it back in 1980, then Holmes wins it back in 1981. This would be a great rivalry, IMO.

    Definetely.

    No, because there would have been a Foreman shadow.

    Not all of them.

    Yes, because he still had Sugar Ray Robinson to fall back on.

    Maybe not because of Holmes "would be" elevated status from the absence of Ali.

    Yes, because he could look up to George Foreman instead of Ali.




    :good
     
  10. PowerPuncher

    PowerPuncher Loyal Member Full Member

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    If you truly believe Liston took a dive -wouldnt they have cashed in and had him take a dive against someone else instead of Ali? (I dont believe the dive claims)
     
  11. OLD FOGEY

    OLD FOGEY Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I don't believe the fix stuff either--but you are right, the odds would probably have been even longer.
     
  12. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    Knowing the exact round when the former champion is going to be knocked out in a title fight is about as profitable a fix as you can get.
     
  13. PowerPuncher

    PowerPuncher Loyal Member Full Member

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    Yes but why does Liston get back up to continue fighting without beeen given a count, expecting the fight to continue, until Jersey Joe is told by a bystander Liston had been down for 10. Jersey Joe WRONGLY STOPPED THE FIGHT

    Bare in mind Liston could be down for 2miniutes and shouldn't be counted out unless Ali is in the neutral corner, which he was not.

    Whether Liston took a dive or not, the fight was finnished prematurely due to incompetant refereeing
     
  14. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    How about this.

    Liston hits the canvas. All he has to do is wait to be counted out. Then a problem arises. Clay who obviously has not read the script dose not go to his corner but stands over the fallen Liston yelling at him to get up so the count cannot start.

    Liston is probably bricking himself at this moment because he knows that if he dose not stick to the script there will be serious concequences.

    Referre Walcot who might know about the arrangments desperately tries to get Clay back to his corner almost shoving him to his corner. It is no good because Clay just runs back to ring centre.

    Liston gets up knowing that he is going to have to take another dive quickly if he dose not want to wear a concrete jacket.

    Walcott then rescues the situation by arguing that because Liston was down for more than 10 seconds he was knocked out.

    Everybody breathes a colective sigh of releif.
     
  15. TBooze

    TBooze Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Well for that to work Fleischer had to be involved as well, he was the one screaming at Jersey Joe to stop it.

    Mind you Nat's hatred for Ali (Clay) is second only for his loathing of Liston; so I guess Fleischer would have a cut of the action without the need to even be paid, he was that bitter an old man.