what if........rickson gracie vs sakuraba

The Funaki fight was fought under special rules though.

Rickson is not proven at the highest level of MMA. The BJJ ranking system back then is something I'm not familiar with.

The only thing I see is a family reference about how good he is.

 

No head butts or elbows were standard Pride rules. Knees may have been excluded, but that would have been the only difference. There may have been something in there about how a fighter gets submitted. There was controversy after the Sakuraba vs Royler fight because Royler never tapped. Renzo didn't tap either, but his arm was visibly dislocated. Royler is known for extreme shoulder flexability. Royler can touch his own ear from behind his back, in the same fashion that Sakuraba's submission was being applied. Royler's sholulder/arm was fine when the fight was stopped. This caused the Gracie's to address the circumstances of how a fight would be stopped after that fight.

I didn't say he was. I don't think Rickson is the best Mixed Martial Artist ever. I do think his Jiu Jitsu is great enough to take some all time greats in the right style match-ups. Sakuraba is one of them.

There isn't a lot showing how well Rickson would perform against today's current crop of mixed martial artists. There is plenty showing his grappling prowess. Rigan Machado is widely respected in the BJJ world. I think there was a time when he was like 300-2 in BJJ competition. One of those losses was to Rickson.

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Royler's arm was not fine at all, it would have broke.

Sakuraba is proven against the best fighters the BJJ world out against him, his resume over BJJ opposition is probably better than Rickson's.

 

Let's see what many respected people not related to Rickson have to say.

“I bet on him against anyone.”
“He is a martial arts myth and has nothing left to prove… Rickson will always do well. He will follow his same old style, do the same thing as always and the opponents will be submitted the same way. Adversaries will tap out even if they know his game. He is one of rare fighters I’ve seen in action who do not give up ground positions. Many regarded as aces in JJ fail in submitting their adversaries because they can’t hold on to the ground positions. I doubt that’s going to happen to Rickson… I bet on him against anyone.”
Fabricio Werdum. Ranked 3rd Best Heavyweight MMA Fighter in the World by Sherdog. 2-Time BJJ World Champion. 2-Time ADCC World Champion. Holds Black Belts in BJJ, Judo & Muay Thai.


“The Best Fighter I’d Ever Seen.”
“Rickson Gracie and me had a match in the BYU wrestling room in 1992. He made me tap out twice and told me I was the toughest guy he’d gone against. Rickson was the best fighter I’d ever seen. He still may be.”
Mark Schultz. Wrestling Gold Medalist at the 1984 Olympics, 3-Time NCAA Champion, 2-Time World Champion, BJJ Black Belt & UFC Veteran.

“I bet on him against any athlete of today.”“I’ve never seen a Jiu-Jitsu like that in my life! I have trained with the toughest guys formed by Carlson Gracie. They were all great and I for sure don’t want to diminish anybody, but I have to say that no one ever did to me what Rickson Gracie has done during training these last days.” ”I have no doubt that Rickson Gracie is the best ground fighter of all time. I bet on him against any athlete of today.”
Paulo Filho, MMA Champion and member of the famous Brazilian Top Team.

“When I’m training with him I’m always tapping.”
“People try to compare Rickson with somebody but no one can compare Rickson in the jiu-jitsu because he’s maybe 20 years forward from everybody. I am the 2 time World Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu Champion and when I’m training with him I’m always tapping. He has a lot of skills and I think in jiu-jitsu nobody can beat him. I studied with him also in Brazil and have been coming to Los Angeles, off and on, for nearly eight years to take lessons. Rickson is more than just one man—he feels like 5 when you’re fighting him. You have to sacrifice, sometimes, to study with the best, and Rickson is the best. There is only one Rickson Gracie and he is on a different level from everyone else.”
Fabio Gurgel. Co-founder of the Alliance Jiu Jitsu Team. 5th Degree Black Belt of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. 8x World Champion of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. ADCC World Champion. 4-Time Brazilian National Champion. 2-Time European Champion.

“All get smoked and dominated by his technique.”
“All the champions from Brazil, World champions and more, you can list the top ones up until today, all get smoked and dominated by his technique.”
Rodrigo Vaghi. World BJJ Champion & Fourth Degree Black Belt

“Rickson used to teach us privates, teaching details… He explained every inch is important.”
“When I was growing up, I looked up to him as my idol. He was the Champion at that time, my time. It was amazing because Rickson gave me the opportunity to train with him, me and my brothers… Rickson used to teach us privates, teaching details… He was about minimal details. He explained that every inch is important, and that opened my mind to look for more details… Rickson helped make my Jiu Jitsu very tight, very detailed. I am very thankful to Rickson for helping me and my brothers be at the level we are today… a lot of thanks to Rickson for that.”
Rigan Machado – 8th Degree BJJ Master. Record of 365 Wins 2 Losses. Legend in the BJJ Community.

Then I can find this:

Yeah, I think I respect those guys' opinions a little bit more.

 

You prove my point there so thanks for that. So much of Rickson's rep is based on training myths and old tales. So little is based on actual fights.

Obviously you found a way of saying that much clearer than I was able to so thanks again.

 

Actual fights and actual fights on video are two different things. You're not talking about fights with international acclaim and not everyone had a cell phone with a camera when Rickson was younger. It's not like there were sanctioning bodies or athletic commissions presiding over all of these encounters. Some would've looked like this, when he fought Hugo Duarte on a beach:

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Of course much of Rickson's reputation is based on myth and legend. Rickson's prime was before calling cards were all the rage. We're lucky we've seen any footage at all. I posted the video of him and Rigan earlier in the thread. To my knowledge, Rigan is the best person there is video of Rickson defeating. This is a video of Rickson winning the absolute division of a tournament against Otavio Peixotinho, another BJJ legend.

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Rickson's legacy starts in Brazil. Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is well...from Brazil, so there was a point where all of it's practitioners would have resided there. America didn't get it's first BJJ black belt until 1992. The thing is, the stories haven't changed with the inclusion of the rest of the world. The stories have stayed consistent with time. Everyone that trains with him goes on and on about how unbelievable the experience was. Here is video of Rickson with BJJ black belt, Jake McKee. This isn't competition footage but it gives you a sense of how good of an instructor Rickson is, and a sense of his technical knowledge.

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There is also footage, and accounts, of Rickson against larger fighters with Sakuraba's style.

Rickson 36 years old 5'9" 185 lb vs Yoji Anjo 5'11" 220 lb
http://www.bjjee.com/articles/a-blo...ickson-gracie-vs-yoji-anjo-closed-door-fight/

Rickson 36 years old 5'9" 185 lb vs Yoshihisa Yamamoto 25 years old 6'3" 215 lb

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Rickson 39 years old vs Nobuhiko Takada 36 years old 210 lb

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Rickson 41 years old vs Masakatsu Funaki 30 years old 6' 209 lb

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The reality is he had the opportunity to prove himself in MMA and opted against it.

Which is why we're left with myths and legend.

Maybe he'd have been good, maybe not. We'll never know. We do know Sakuraba was incredible though.

 

Rickson Gracie was born in 1958. His prime was in the 1980's, and that is when he did most of his competing. UFC I was 9 days before his 35th birthday. I don't know what year, and at what age you expected Rickson to plunge into the sport of MMA. A sport that was barely in existence.

I've always heard that Rickson and Sakuraba were going to fight in 2001. Rickson's son died and that ended any chance of that happening. Rickson stopped training, teaching, seminars etc...

This is what Rickson had to say about Sakuraba in 2013

 

Mark Coleman had no qualms competing at an advanced age.

And there's no plunging into anything. Rickson fought in Pride, just against weak opposition. The only good win he has is in a modified rules fight basically meaning you can't get hit when on the ground.

Rickson competed 11 times in MMA fights, during these years there were high quality MMA fighters calling him out.

It's easy to say anyone would win a fight, less easy to go out and do it. Rickson didn't go out and do it.

 

This all the way.

I have no doubt that Rickson really was a formidable BJJ specialist, and if people that trained with him say he was one of the best ever BJJ practitioners, I can accept that.

However, there's a rather large difference in being an excellent BJJ guy and trying to take down a guy like Mark Kerr, failing and then getting pounded into jelly. Even dudes like my man Vovchanchyn had unusual success against grapplers due to their extreme physicality and strange bodily dimensions.

If Rickson felt he didn't want to get punched in the face to prove he's the best, that's one thing, and I'm totally OK with that. What I'm not OK with is him spouting off about guys like Ruas, Fedor and Kerr - real hardasses - and how easy he'd beat them, while NEVER intending to fight them and while in actuality fighting cans like Takada.

 

I mean Sakuraba has beaten Belfort and Rampage both of those would crush Funaki in the first round (well Belfort would probably gas and lose a UD but you get my point).

 

The thing is, look how many boxers have looked unbeatable in the ams or in sparring but don't make it at the top level.

People swore blind Breland was going to be the best boxer in history, but because he did fight at a high level we know that didn't become the case.

There was a new blue belt in my gym, first time I ever rolled with him he was in my guard, made a mistake with his arm and I caught him in a shoulder lock (see Mir Vs Williams) it was over in about 30 seconds. If he never came back to my gym again he'd be convinced I was the real deal because blue belts rarely get beaten so quickly. As it was, he's been every other week with me and seen me get my arse kicked as well as kicking my arse himself.

Likewise there's this beast of a man I regularly roll with, I'm at a stage now where I can sweep and tap him about half the time but I thank every god out there that he isn't allowed to punch me in the face because a real MMA fight would be no contest.

Gym success does not mean MMA success. Rickson beat Funaki so we can debate his abilities a bit, but not much beyond that.

Out of past MW champs I can favour him over Tanner and Bustamante, that's it.

 

Funaki had a bum knee by that point of his career and it let him down against Rickson. A win is still a win but if you're going to count his weight and age as advantages then you also need to count his bum knee as a disadvantage.

 

I think Rickson would have beaten Saku. Saku's best attribute, his patience, perseverance and ability to think during a fight were also possessed by Rickson.