What if Ring Magazine rankings had existed during Jack Johnsons career?

If I could show you there were multiple offers at or above 30,000 for Johnson to face Jeanette, McVey, or Langford as Champion, will you change perceptive?

I have posted them before. In fact one of the offers was from the same promoter who backed Burns vs Johnson.

 

It should have cost you six months.

 

Let me know when you are ready for your next avatar picture rights bet. You whined like a stuck pig the last time, and could not accept it for a while, angling for an out. You see, if I make a honest mistake, I'll own up to it.

 

You said "Peter is going to blast Toney away easily in 4-5 rounds. way too big and strong for james."


I said "Toney is going to outbox Peter, by countering him with right hands over the top all night, and he will be able to take a few of peter big bombs with his steel chin."



Let me ask you....Who was closer? You lucked out with the horrible decision. Everyone knows Toney won that fight.



Certainly wasn't a easy peter knockout in 4-5 rounds like you predicted



I will make you a lifetime ban bet....name it and we will do it

 

If Haye ever sacks up and fights either Klitschko we will discuss terms.

I had quite a bit of fun with the avatar bet. Other posters offered suggestions which were used in the picture.

 

In his own time, you really think this is a possibility?

Sorry, but i cant agree. Not as good as some of the other ATGs, maybe. Not as good as one or two others in his time, doubtful but possible. But Average, not a chance in the slightest.

 

I will never bet against Wladimir. He is my favorite modern fighter. if Wlad fights Povetkin, you can take Povetkin and I will take Wlad. If Wlad wins, you can never post on this site again. If you want to wait until Vitali fights, I will make another off then. Wlad is a lot better than Vitali.


I had a lot of fun too...it was a pleasure exposing your erroneous prediction. Other posters shared a laugh with me about you in PMs.

 

1901
1 Jeffries - Ruhlin
2 Fitzsimmons – No Fights
3 Ruhlin – L Jeffries
4 Everett – W Sharkey, McCoy
5 Sharkey – W Russell L Everett
6 Corbett – No fights
7 McCoy – W Barry, Scales, Madden
8 O Brien – W Craig, Kenny & 13 others.
9 Young Corbett – W Ryan
10 Ryan – W West, Young Corbett & Others L Young Corbett
11 Hanrahan – W Hart, Handler L Bonner, Walsh, Handler(Pre ranking)
12 Hart – W West, Creedon & others L - Hanrahan
13 West – L Ryan, Hart,
14 Root - Byers, Carter, Jim Ryan
15 Gardner – W Carter X 2 L Walcott
16 Carter – WalcottX2, Handler, Bonner & Others L Root, Gardner X 2
17 Walcott – W Bonner, Gardner, Young Peter Jackson, Fern L Kid Carter X 2
18 Choynski – W Jack Johnson
19 Maher – W Jim Jeffords
20 Kennedy – D HankGriffin, L Jim Jeffries
21 Childs – W Byers
22 Martin – W Russell, Griffin


This is the year end rankings for 1901. It is interesting that Jeffries had beaten the top 5 contenders to his thrown and went on to beat most twice. He had also got the better of number 18 and beat no. 20. With the likely exception of Suzie Q, who would probably be screaming blue murder that he didn’t fight number 21, 22! Interestingly, at this stage, the black fighter, with the best win is the very small Barbados Joe Walcott.
Some other interesting things I have noticed, firstly it is absolutely amazing how often former Jack Finnegan opponent, Jack Bonner s name pops up on the records of many of these fighters, usually losing, but sometimes scoring the occasional upset. Definitely one of the great and forgotten journeymen.
The ratings are a little skewed from the success of some of the smaller guys who fought at lighter weights after knocking out some heavy contenders, but results are results, and I think that some guys stay there.
1901 – Did seem to be a time where the top fighters started fighting a little less. Quite amazing, since Jeffries was one of the more active opponents of the time.

Matts rankings for 1901 are Jeffries
2 Ruhlin
3 McCoy
4 Childs
5 Sharkey
6 Root
7 Martin
8 Maher
9 Griffin
10 Gardner
Being overly critical of these, after looking at all results, I don’t see how Griffin could possibly take Kennedy’s position, based on a draw with him. Kennedy’s only other fight was a loss to Jeffries but this cant hurt his standing, surely. And why is childs so high? His only win was over Byers. Gardner is an interesting one. He is trading spots with triangle type results with Walcott and Kid Carter.

 

1902
1 Jeffries - W Fitzsimmons
2 Fitzsimmons – L Jeffries
3 Ruhlin – W Maher, Sharkey
*4 Jimmy Burns - W Rowen, Everett, Tracey – Then Retired!
5 Johnson – Kennedy, Jeffries, Klondike, Everett, Childs, Gardner, Russell Drawn Griffin
6 Everett – W McCoy, Hayes L Burns
7 Sharkey – NC Maher L Ruhlin
8 Corbett – No Fights
9 Root – Gardner, Carter, Hart L Gardner
10 Hart – W Carter, and others ND Obrien L Root
11 Gardner –W Walcott, Root, Gardner L Johnson
12 Carter – W Choynski, Wienig, McCoy, Maher L Hart, Ryan, Root, Gardner
13 McCoy – ND Russell, L Carter
14 O Brien – W Choynski, Driscoll,Kenny and others NC Walcott, Young Peter Jackson, 15 Maher, Hart, Bonner, Maher, Jeffords
16 Ryan – W Young Corbett, Billy Smith and others
*17 Young Corbett – L Ryan – Retired.
18 Martin – Childs, Ferguson, Armstrong, Craig
19 Choynski – Hanrahan, Wienig, Childs L Kid Carter, O Brien
20 Childs – W Hanrahan, Walcott L Martin, Johnson, Choynski
*21 Hanrahan – L Childs, Choynski – Retired
22 Peter Jackson- W Butler, Creedon, West and others D Walcott ND Bonner L Al Neil & Others
23 Joe Walcott –W Handler, West L Gardner, Childs ND Young Peter Jackson, Russell obrien
*24 West – L Young Peter Jackson, Walcott retired.
25 Maher – W Jeffords, L Ruhlin, Carter ND Russell, Sharkey, O Brien
*26 Kennedy – L Johnson - Retired

O Brien seems to be the most active and most impressive of the up and coming younger fighters in 1902.
Johnson’s incredible run, also seems to place him very high, very quickly. It is hard to believe that he has climbed so quick given that it is just a year after the Choynski loss, but I think it is a surprisingly good and fair rankings method so far.
Jimmy Burns was probably a lot better than most of us have ever considered (Has anyone ever given him a second thought before?)
This year seems to be a bit of a changing of the guard. The younger fighters are proving themselves better than the older fighters who are starting to lose form and/or retire, as a general rule.
Comparing to Matt’s List,
Champion Jeffries
2 Fitzsimmons
3 Ruhlin
4 Martin
5 Johnson
6 Gardner
7 O’Brien
8 Root
9 Hart
10 Carter

I think that they are reasonably close, although I wonder whether Martin is a touch high. And Johnson while hitting good form, is probably going to be seen a little lower, because of this, since he must rate below martin since martin was the coloured champion. Also, it must be still hard to forget the loss to Choynski in some minds, plus his ticket to such a high ranking, Pete Everett was never really seen to be that great and only got a high ranking on my list. Also, Carter I think must have dropped out of the top 10. I wonder whether Tommy Ryan might deserve this spot, despite not really competing at heavyweight.

 

1903
1 Jeffries W Corbett
2 Fitzsimmons – W Coughlin, Gardner
3 Ruhlin – Everett, Sanders, Carter D Ferguson ND Carter
5 Johnson – Martin, McVey, Ferguson, Butler
6 Everett –L Ruhlin - Retired
7 Sharkey – No Fights
8 Corbett – L Jeffries – Retired
9 Gardner – Maher, Hart, Root L Fitzsimmons
10 Root – W McCoy, Flynn L Gardner
11 Hart – W Bonner, Carter ND O Brien, Choynski L Gardner
12 McVey – W Carter, Martin L Johnson X 2
13 O Brien – Walcott, Sullivan, Carter & others ND Choynski, Hart, Byers, Bonner & others
14 Sandy Ferguson – W Byers, Walcott, Kondike, Armstrong L Johnson D Ruhlin
15 Joe Walcott – W Carter, D Young Peter Jackson, O Brien L Ferguson
16 Carter – W Butler, Grim L McVey, O brien, Ruhlin, Walcott, Hart
17 McCoy – W Mccormick L Root
18 Ryan – W Stift and others
19 Armstrong – W Martin, Black Fitzsimmons L Gardner, Ferguson
18 Martin – L Johnson, Armstrong, McVey
20 Choynski – W Maher Burley ND Hart, O Brien L Burley
21 Nick Burley – W Choynski, L Choynski D Paddy Slavin
22 Childs – No Fights
23 Peter Jackson- W Long & others d Walcott L Young Tierney, J Willie
24 Munro - W Maher & Limerick
25 Maher – L Choynski Gardner, Munroe

 

You may well have clippings that show promoters purporting to offer these sums for Johnson to defend against McVey,Jeanette, or Langford.
I would point out however that,Johnson received just $5,000 for waltzing with O Brien.
A F Bettinson ,the promoter of the National Sporting Club [London]offered Johnson only £3000 to defend against Langford.
Johnson was to have received $14,400 for his defence against Moran, [neither was paid].
So talk of Johnson receiving $30,000 /40,000 to defend against the black trio was likely just that , talk.
Johnson's best purses were against white challengers.
The purse for the Johnson/ Ketchel fight was $40.000,with Johnson to receive 60% $24,000.

Since Johnson only received $30,000 for defending against Willard, I find these stories of $30-40,000 purses , for 2 blacks to fight for the title ,to belong with tales of Moose being carried from miles,10second 100yds dashes",killed him a bear when he was only three", and other tales of hyperbole.
Back on the subject of Moran, whom you say outboxed Johnson at long range.
Thirty six years old Johnson weighing 221lbs beat Moran over 20rds.
Johnson finished the bout unmarked, Moran had deep cuts over both eyes, and ,a broken nose, and these from an unfit ,aging champion, who did not exert himself unduly.

 

Mcvey,

Here are some articles of big time money offers for Johnson to fight Langford, Jeanette, and McVey. Will you now change your tune that there wasn't enough money for these fights, and people would pay to see two black men fight for a title?


1 ) Johnson signs than backs out of fight vs. Jeanette in 1912

[url]http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9D07E5DB113AE633A25756C1A96E9C946396D6CF[/url]




2 ) 100k Offer to meet Langford, McVey, and FLynn!

[url]http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9906E5DD133CE633A25751C1A9669D946396D6CF[/url]



3 ) 50K purse to meet Langford, Jeanette or McVey

[url]http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=1&res=9800E3DB1F3CE633A25750C1A9669D946396D6CF[/url]


4 ) 30K for Langford

[url]http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9501E3D6153CE633A25755C2A9609C946396D6CF[/url]


Want more? There are also offers for Johnson to fight the most talented black fighters in France or England.

Let's move on. Case closed. Johnson could have fought McVey, Jeanette, or Langford for big time money in the USA, Australia, England or France. The money was there.

 

HA! I too received some PM kudos. You can't expose someone when you are wrong and lose. Ok--We will wait for Vitali to fight again. Lord knows you can't be honest about his ability in the ring. That will be my advantage.

 

And one more year, before i go to bed. Sorry if i am boring everyone with these lists, but i am quite enjoying them, and they are giving (me at least) a good unbiased indication of where various fightes were at, at the time. I have found the rise of Root and to a lesser extend hart, in particular, in these rankings to be very interesting, as to be honest, I have never really thought they were necessarilly any better than other fighters at the time, yet they appear to be leading as the best white challengers.

And on the Black White issue, it is interesting, that Johnson really does seem to be the only coloured fighter who has really made a dent in the top 10 rankings, although i get the feeling that the tide may be turning in the next few years.

Fitzsimmons is another whose career continues to astound me. I always considered him a non entity after the Jeffries losses, but he is still fighting and competing with top 10 contenders in Gardner and O Brien. When you consider that Fitzsimmons became a lock for a top 5 heavyweight contenders position in 1892 when he KOd Peter Maher (arguably it may have been earlier) and it is now 1904, Fitzsimmons has been a top 5 heavyweight for 12 years and counting. That is as impressive a record, at heavyweight, as anyone.

And yet another of the never ending Fitzsimmons tidbits, with Jeffries retiring, he was ranked the no 1 fighter in the world yet again.

Paddy Slavin is an interesting character also. He was ancient by this time, but his name does still crop up on some of the lower ranking characters. I think he was obviously better than many people give him credit for today. Even the Ancient Slavin, was probably still a top 30 fighter and decent gatekeeper.

1904
1 Jeffries - W Munroe - Retired
2 Fitzsimmons – ND O Brien
3 Ruhlin – D Hart ND Jeffords
4 Johnson – McVey, Childs, Martin
5 Sharkey – ND Monroe
6 Root – NC Ryan W Gardner D Gardner
7 Gardner – W Jeffords, Carter & Others D Hart, Root, Flynn L Root
8 Hart – W Ferguson D Gardner & Ruhlin
9 Martin – W McVey L Johnson
10 McVey – L Johnson, Martin
11 O Brien – Burns, Kelly, Carter, Schreck & Others ND Ryan, Sullivan, Fitzsimmons, McCoy & Others
12 Sandy Ferguson – L Hart, Walcott, ND Johnson
Dixie Kid W Walcott ND O Brien, D Young Peter Jackson
13 Joe Walcott – W black Bill, Ferguson D Langford, Gans L Dixie Kid
14 George Cole - Stift, Holly & Williams L O Brien
15 Jack Williams - W Maher Carter Choynski l Cole
16 Carter – W Choynski, L Gardner Cole O brien williams
17 McCoy – W O Sullivan, ND O’Brien
18 Ryan – W Stift & Others ND O’Brien & Root
19 Armstrong – W Walter Johnson - Retired
20 Choynski – L Carter – Retired
21 Billy Woods – W Burley D Schreck, Burns
22 Twin Sullivan – L O Brien, Hugo Kelly (Pre Ranking) W Schreck, Kelly (pre ranking)
23 Nick Burley – L Billy Woods, Sullivan
24 Childs – L Johnson W Klondike - Retired
25 Peter Jackson- W Joe Walcott & Others D Dixie Kid
26 Munro – ND Sharkey, L Jeffries
27 Jeffords – L O Brien, Gardner, Maher ND Ruhlin, O Brien & Many ranked others
28 Cooley – L Gardner, Flynn (pre ranking), Williams, Jeffords
29 Maher – W Jeffords L Williams, Cooley (no more wins against top 20 opponents, dropping from future ratings.)

 

Thanks, Janitor! Brilliant stuff:good