What if Ring Magazine rankings had existed during Jack Johnsons career?

1905
1 O Brien – Young Peter Jackson, Kaufman, Fitzsimmons
2 Fitzsimmons L O Brien
3 Ruhlin – W McCormick
4 Hart – W Johnson, Root
5 Johnson – W Jeffords, Harris, Ferguson, Young Peter Jackson L Hart, Jeanette D Munroe, Jeanette
6 Root – L Hart
7 Twin Sullivan – W Young Fitzsimmons, Burley Shreck D O Brien, Kelly
8 Schreck – W Gardner, Barry D Cole L Twin Sullivan
9 Gardner – L Schreck W Stift
10 Martin – No Fights
11 McVey – No Fights
12 Tommy Burns – W Kelly, L Twin Sullivan
13Hugo Kelly – W Fitzsimmons, L Burns D Mahoney
14 Sandy Ferguson – W McCormick L Johnson
15 Dixie Kid – D Cole, Temple
16 Joe Walcott – No fights
17 George Cole – W Williams ND Jeanette, Schreck, Langford & Others
18 Jack Williams – W Cooley, Bonner, Jeffords & Others L Cole
19 McCoy – KO 1 - Retired
20 Billy Woods – D Barry – Retired
21 Nick Burley – L Twin Sullivan
22 Langford – W Cole, Holly, Jackson L Jeanette
23 Peter Jackson- L O Brien, Langford D Johnson
24 Munro – W Payne & Others ND Johnson
25 Jeffords – W Cooley Butler L Temple ND Williams, Jeanette, Bonner L Johnson
26 Mahoney – W Cooley & Others D Hugo Kelly
27 Cooley – L Jeffords, Williams, Young Mahoney
28 Maher – W Butler

Interesting that Philadelphia Jack O Brien has the highest rated win (and he has been winning for a long time) of all. It seems that his World Title Claims that are now forgotten are a little more legitimate than they seem. Johnson seems to be quite a bit ahead of all the other coloured fighters, which i think is about right. And Root, looks like he has peaked and his career will go down from here.

ONe of the strange things is the picking up of someone like Twin Sullivan in rankings. He was struggling to move above Journeyman for quite a while, but is now becoming a major player. It seems that this is understandable why some of the older fighters of the time, were criticising the state of the division.

Another amazing thing i noticed, is that McVey took a year off, right when youd think he would be starting to get in the mix. A bit strange that one.

 

1906
1 O Brien – W Cooley & others D Burns
2 Fitzsimmons – W Haghey
3 Ruhlin – W O Rourke, Ferguson then retired
4 Tommy Burns – Hart, Flynn & Others D O Brien
5 Hart – L Burns ND Shrek
6 Johnson –W Jeanette, Lanford & others
7 Root – W Russell then Retired
8 Kaufman – Gardner, Schreck & Sullivan
9 Twin Sullivan – D Burley, Flynn L Kaufman
10 Schreck – W Barry ND Hart
11 Gardner – ND Jeffords, L Kaufman
12 McVey – Martn & Others
13 Martin – L McVey
14 Hugo Kelly – W Cooley, Barry & Others D Sullivan
15 Sandy Ferguson – ND Ruhlin
16 Dixie Kid – ND Givens
17 Joe Walcott – Forfeiting Ranking due to fighting only at Welterweight
18 George Cole – W Jack Williams D Jeanette
20 Jack Williams – D Blackburn, Cole
21 Nick Burley – L Bates, Sullivan & Others – Removed from Rankings
22 Langford – W Temple, Young Peter Jackson L Young Peter Jackson
23 Donovan – W Jackson & Others
24 Peter Jackson- W Langford L Langford, Donovan
25 Munro – W Allen then retired
26 Jeffords – ND Gardner, Johnson
27 Mahoney – W Grim & Others L Kelly
28 Cooley – W Barry L O Brien, Kelly
29 Sailor bourke – W Maher, Grim & Others
30 Maher – W O rourke & Others L Sailor Bourke


The appearance of Kaufman in the top 10 is interesting, It is starting to look like his selection as a Johnson opponent was nowhere near as out of nowhere as people often suggest.

An Honorary mention to Gus Ruhlin, who retires on the basis that no one other than Fitzsimmons or O Brien had managed to beat him or someone ranked higher than him. He was probably no longer a real force for some time, but no one was able to knock him off his well attained perch.

O Brien at top still, shows that he actually deserves more praise than he usually gets. The black dynamite crew really are taking a lot longer to break into the top 10 than I would have thought. It will be interesting to see if this situation changes once Johnson gets the title. I think it will but maybe guys like Kaufman and Flynn were not as bad a challengers as it would seem.

 

Good works guys, some food for the brain here.

 

I told you if Johnson only received $30,000 to defend against Willard I do not believe he would have got more to fight another black fighter,articles are just that, speculative talk they are NOT MONEY ON THE TABLE.
"Johnson says he expects to receive $??????? "proves NOTHING
This is just publicity ****.

The National Sporting Club Of London offered Johnson only £3,000 to defend aganst Langford, that is some distance below $30-40,000.

I see your spell of banishment did nothing for your arrogance,or your biased posts.

 

The offers were out there. Stop casting a blind eye at reality!!!! How is reposting multiple news articles biased? On this topic, you are a joke. Once again:


Here are some articles of big time money offers for Johnson to fight Langford, Jeanette, and McVey. Will you now change your tune that there wasn't enough money for these fights, and people would pay to see two black men fight for a title?


1 ) Johnson signs than backs out of fight vs. Jeanette in 1912

This content is protected

2 ) 100k Offer to meet Langford, McVey, and FLynn!

This content is protected

3 ) 50K purse to meet Langford, Jeanette or McVey

This content is protected

4 ) 30K for Langford

This content is protected

Want more? There are also offers for Johnson to fight the most talented black fighters in France or England.

Let's move on. Case closed. Johnson could have fought McVey, Jeanette, or Langford for big time money in the USA, Australia, England or France. The money was there.

 

Here we go again ,a load of crap spewing out of the rabid Johnson hater, who once again hijacks a good thread to post his own personal agenda of bile.
Some of the guys here have put a lot of work into this thread,and you have tried,once again, to reduce it to a tear down of Johnson.

I have to tell you, everyone thinks of you as a clown, and that you were not missed one iota, when you were banned.
Show some respect and consideration to the fella's who have taken the time to really analyse this info, concerning wins and losses.
Better still, show some compassion for all of us ,go shoot your self ,you daft *****.

CHANGE THE RECORD AND, GIVE US ALL A REST.

 

Haven't been able to find out why McVey took that year off, it does appear curious.

 

Typical spin response. I could care less what you write or think. Simply skip my posts if you can. You do not speak for the board here so spare me your drivel.

You are really delusional. You asked for proof, and I gave you multiple documents. If the truth bothers you, so be it. I wonder how this information would play out on another board? Perhaps I should post it there too. Judging by the amount of time you spend on this topic, my best guess is offering such information would ruffle your feathers assuming you haven't plucked them all out.

 

Sam McVey took a year off after Ed Martin beat him, and considered retirement.

 

1907

1 Tommy Burns – W O Brien, Moir
2 O Brien – W Malgan & Others L Burns
3 Johnson – W Felix, Lang, Fitzsimmons, Flynn ND Sailor Bourke
4 Fitzsimmons – L Johnson
5 Kaufman – W Schreck, Barry, Sullivan
6 Schreck – W Ross, Hart L Kaufman
7 Hart – W Rogers, Maher L Schreck
8 Flynn – W Barry, Ross, Gardner, Sullivan, Squires L Johnson
9 Twin Sullivan – W Burley, Squires L Flynn, Kaufman D Flynn, Kelly
10 Gardner – L Flynn, D Mustain
11 McVey – W Martin, Craig & Others D Jeanette
12 Martin – L McVey
13 Hugo Kelly – D Ryan, Sullivan, Papke
14 Sandy Ferguson – ND Harris, Stevenson
15 Dixie Kid – No Fights
16 Donovan – D Blackburn & others W Walcott
17 Joe Walcott – L Donovan, ND Cole, D Donovan
18 George Cole – ND Blackburn, Walcott & others
19 Jim Barry W Ross, Blackburn ND Langford
20 Fred Bradley – W Williams, Jeffords, L Blackburn, Barry
21 Blackburn - W Williams, Barry & Others D Donovan, Cole & others
22 Jack Williams – L Fred Bradley, Terry Martin W
23 Peter Jackson- W Mustain, L Lanford ND Jeanette
24 Langford – W Temple, Young Peter Jackson, ND Barry
25 Terry Mustain – D Gardner, L Young Peter Jackson
26 Morgan Williams – W Burley & others L Terry Mustain
27 Nick Burley – L Morgan Williams W Slavin – Retired.
28 Jeanette – W Jeffords ND Mc Vey, Young Peter Jackson, D Langford
29 Cutler - W Jeffords, L Jim Barry, Johnson then Retired
30 Jeffords – L Bourke, Jeanette, Bradley, Cutler ND Sailor Bourke
31 Young Mahoney – W Bennett, Mack D Gunther
32 Fred Cooley – W Hagen, Smith & Others
33 Sailor bourke – Grim, Holy & Others ND Johnson, Jeffords
34 Maher – L Hart


The rise of Kaufman continues.

And it certainly is starting to look like Johnson’s first couple of title defences are the equivalent of cleaning out the division! Contrary to what we usually believe, (and is apparent from glancing at records), Kaufman, Flynn etc seem to have been major players.

 

I think we all knew that McVey had a year hiatus, after the second Martin fight , Box rec tells us that , and it is very possible that after three defeats on the bounce including a disheartening last round ko to Johnson that Sam became discouraged , especially as he had disposed of Martin in quick fashion a year previously.
I would be reluctant to assert that with any confidence however,I have read he had an illness, but haven't been able to confirm it.
In boxing, two and two, sometimes makes five.

 

1908
1 Johnson – D Jeanette W Taylor, Burns
2 Tommy Burns – W Roche, Smith, Squires, Lang L Johnson
3 O Brien – W Ward, Lenihan ND Bonner, Temple, Cole
4 Fitzsimmons – W Paul
5 Kaufman – W Jim Johnson, Flynn, Barry, Mustain
6 Langford – Barry, Temple, Ross, Ferguson, Flynn D Jeanette
7 Ross – Jeffords, Schreck, Gardner D Barry L Langford
8 Schreck – W Ritchie L Ross
9 Hart – W Twin Sullivan & Others
10 Flynn – W Battling Johnson ND Barry, Sullivan L Kaufman, Langford
11 Terry Mustain – W Gardner, Twin Sullivan & Others L Kaufman
12 Twin Sullivan – D Flynn L Ketchell, Mustain, Hart
13 Gardner – L Mustain, Ross – Retired.
14 McVey – W Smith, Taylor & Others
15 Martin – W McLachlen
16 Ketchell – W Mike Sullivan, Papke, Kelly
17 Papke – W Kelly, Ketchell & Others L Ketchell
18 Hugo Kelly – L Papke, Ketchell
19 Sandy Ferguson – L Langford, Jeanette
20 Dixie Kid – W Jeff Clarke D Cole & Others
21 Donovan – W Smith & Others D Walcott & Blackburn
22 Mike Twin Sullivan – L Ketchell w J Gardner & Others
23 Jimmy Gardner – W Walcott, Clabby & Others L M Sullivan
24 Joe Walcott – L Donovon, Jimmy Gardner ND Cole & Others
25 Jeanette – Jeffords, Cole, Ferguson & Others D Langford ND Barry
26 George Cole – L Jeanette ND Walcott, Dixie Kid, Obrien
27 Jim Barry – W Temple, Battling Johnson & Others D Ross Flynn Bradley L Langford, Kaufman
28 Jim Stewart – W Bonner, Jeffords & Others ND Mccoy L Barry
Larry Connley – W Bartley Connolly & Retired
29 Bartley Connolly – W Walcott, Bradley & Others D Dan Flynn
30 Fred Bradley –L Stewart, Connolly, Kaufman
31 Blackburn – ND O Brien, Donovan & Others
32 McKinnon W Williams
33 Jack Williams – L Bill McKinnon, D Clarke
34 Peter Jackson- NC Sullivan, Neil
35 Jeffords – Jeanette, Ross, Stewart
36 Young Mahoney – W Kosid L Kosid
37 Kosid – W Young Mahoney L Mahoney retired
38 Willis W Cooley, L young Peter Jackson
39 Fred Cooley – Riordan & Mills L Willis & Moran
39 Dan Flynn – W Sailor Bourke
40 Willie Lewis – W Thorne & others ND Donovan & others
41 Sailor bourke – W Sullivan & Others L McKinnon, Lewis, Dan Flynn
42 Kid McCoy W Maher ND Stewart – then retired
43 Maher – W Evans, Clarke

Special Mention to Kid McCoy, who after taking two years off, launched a comeback, and etched back in the top b beating last placed Maher, who despite no longer being a realistic player, is still staying active, and is still capable of ND ing Jeff Clarke.

Incidentally, Jeff Clarke, who is often described as one of the greats to never get their shot, is really struggling to beat the lower end of the top 30 or 40 fighters. At the moment, he cant crack the top 50.

It is also interesting, that this is the first time that the list is starting to expand, particularly below the 20s. I am not sure what this means, maybe there is a drop in standard at the higher in, or maybe there is an increase in standard of the challengers. Perhaps, also it might be something simple like the phasing out of ND fights or improvements in communications of results. The lists will probably be limited to a top 30 next time around, meaning those below 30, will not be updated unless I have a change of heart. This will likely see the end of some good fighters like Cooley, Willie Lewis and others which is a shame, but we can only do so much.

In relation to Johnson, it is interesting that he has beaten or will beat all but 2 of the top 10, and he has beaten the men who beat those other 2. That is pretty much dominance. I can see why he had trouble picking certain opponents. It is also interesting that the guys who beat Fitz are all top shelf, and only the best can do this (will be good to see what happens when Bill Lang gets his win)

 

You showed clippings with quotes from Johnson that he intended to fight these men for projected sums of money ,that is not proof , it is publicity spin.
If Johnson only received $30,000 for defending against Willard, do you think it likely that any promoter would offer him $40,000/$50,000 to defend against a member of his own race?
There are clippings of Tommy Burns saying he intended to fight Sam Mcvey, before his fight with Johnson was ever on the table, but it was never going to happen ,simply because the" do re mi " was never available.
There are clippings of Jeffries supposedly going to fight black challengers ,again they were never realistically going to occur,it is SPIN.
YOu confuse the lack of money with some imagined excuse. I do not doubt Johnson ducked Langford, neither do I doubt that if $50,000 was REALLY on the table, he would have taken it.
Langford had no doubt improved, and matured physically, since his hiding, at the hands of Johnson in 1906. Equally Johnson had improved and matured physically.Johnson would have had to be in top shape to contain Langford ,something he seldom was in after his title win over Burns, whereas " half fit" was good enough for the white challengers he disposed of.
Now can we get back on thread?
Janitor, and others have put a lot of time into this, courtesy dictates that it does not degenerate into a ," yes he did ,no he didn't row", which bores everyone else rigid ,and ,frankly, me too.

 

Amazing. You are open to new detail and information that does not diminish other fighters, but not with Johnson?

McVey was depressed when he lost to Martin. That was the main reason he gave up the game for a while. I believe black dynamite mentions this.

 

The reference to Black Dynamite is intruiging and maybe verifiable, perhaps you are correct on this.

The rest of the post, doesn't make sense.:huh