What if Ring Magazine rankings had existed during Jack Johnsons career?

1917
1 Willard – No fights
2 Johnson – No fights
3 Moran – W Cowler ND Morris, Gunboat
4 Jim Coffey – W Geyer L Moran ND Gunboat
5 Harry Texas Tate – W Fulton
6 Fred Fulton – W Flynn, Gunboat, Morris, Devere, Langford L Morris, London, Tate
7 Jack Dempsey – W Gunboat Smith, Morris L Meehan, Flynn (pre rankings)
8 Carl Morris – W Pelkey, Gunboat, Levinskey
9 Levinskey – ND Miske, Gibbons, Greb L Brennan D Coffey
10 Harry Greb W Gavignan & Others ND Levinsky, Dillon & Others
11 Clay Turner – w London, Gavignan & Others
12 Jack London W Fulton L Levinskey, Greb, Turner
13 KO Bill Brennan – W Devere, Levinsky & Others L Levinskey
14 Jack Dillon – W Gunboat & Others ND Greb, Gibbons, Miske, Chip and Meehan
15 Frank Goddard – W Beckett & Others
16 Joe Beckett – L Frank Goddard
17 Dan Flynn – L Beckett, Fulton
18 Tommy Uren – W Clabby, McGoorty, Stone L Kay, Clabby, Holland
19 Fred Kay – W StoneL Uren, Stone
20 Harry Stone W Kay L Kay, Edwards
21 Llew Edwards – W Stone & others L Stone
22 George Chip – ND Greb, Gibbons & Others D Dillon
23 Jeff Smith – W Zulu Kid & Others ND Greb
24 Syd Mitchell – W Rowlands
25 Len Rowlands – W Magirl & Others L Smith, Dillon, Mitchell
26 Roddy MacDonald – W Magirl & Others
27 Johnny Wilson - W Magirl, L MacDonald
28 Art Magirl – L Rowlands, McDonald, Wilson
29 Jimmy Clabby – W Kay, Uren & Smith L Uren
30 Dave Smith – W Lloyd L Clabby then retired.
31 Willie KO Brennan – W Fisher & Others ND Greb & Others
32 Jackie Clarke – W Fisher & Others D Greb, Gibbons ND Houck, Christie & Others
33 Soldier Bartfield – W Young Fisher ND Greb & Others
34 Young Fisher – L Willie KO Brennan, Clarke, Bartfield
35 Houck – ND Levinsky & Others W Crouse & Others
36 Buck Crouse – L Fisher, Greb, Houck
37 Albert Lloyd – W Bell McGoorty L Clabby, Kay, Smith
38 Colin Bell – W ODonnell, Tracey L Lloyd
39 Gunboat Smith –– L Dillon, Dempsey, Fulto
40 Langford – W Johnson, Tate, Norfolk
41 Tango kid – W Johnson L Jeanette then retired
42 Joe Jeanette – W Barry, Clark, Johnson
43 McVey – Clark, Barry, Johnson
44 Jim Johnson – W Wills, Clark L Langford, Tango Kid, McVey ND Wills
45 Harry Wills – L Jim Johnson ND Langford Jim Johnson
46 Jim Flynn –ND Devere

There are no listed fights for Willard! Interestingly, if I was to stay true to my form, there would be no listed fights for 2 years in a row, which would theoretically make him retired by what I have done in other ranking years, which would mean that Jack Johnson would become the number 1 fighter in the world again! But since he is world champ, we can probably give Willard a pass.

Fulton has a rollercoaster ride this year. Not only does he KO the big guns, but he has a reported loss by KO to London and a DQ loss to Harry Tate where he KOd tate and it sounds like it was a Fitzsimmons/Sharkey style KO.

Dave Smith has retired. This year, I missed it on the way through, but he was coming off a win over former world title challenger Bill Squires. It is amazing how the guys you think nothing of, keep popping up in these rankings.

Harry Greb rockets into the top 10. Surprisingly, though, it is with a win over little known Jack London. Greb has really got a lot of NDs with a many of the best middleweights of the time. I find this quite interesting.

The Black Dynamite crew have really dropped in the rankings and will probably drop off next years list if they don’t get some big wins. This is surprising to me. I know the list is skewed a little by the presence of middleweights, who don’t do a lot of campaining at Heavy, but to be honest, for the most part the lists are true to their rankings, so far as results go.

Dempsey’s quick recovery from the Flynn

 

1918
1 Willard – No fights
2 Johnson – W McLosky
3 Jack Dempsey – Morris, Flynn, Flynn, Levinskey & Others
4 Fred Fulton – W Tate, Moran, Cowler, Langford & Others L Dempsey
5 Moran – W Jones L Fulton
6 Jim Coffey – ND Levinskey, Jeanette
7 Harry Texas Tate – L Fulton
8 Carl Morris – L Dempsey X 2
9 Levinskey – ND Brennan, Coffey, Greb, Turner L Dempsey
10 Harry Greb – ND Levinsky, Miske & Others
11 Clay Turner – W Chip & Others ND Gibbons, Gunboat, Greb & Others
12 Jack Thompson – W Clark, Jamaica Kid ND Wills, Jeanette, Langford, Tate
13 Jamaica Kid _ W London L Thompson
14 Jack London – L Jamaica Kid
15 KO Bill Brennan – L Dempsey D Levinskey & others
16 Eddie Kruvosky – W Farmer, Murray & others L Fulton, Miske(pre rank), Meehan (Pre rank)
17 Frank Farmer – W Dillon, king & Others L Kruvosky
18 Hugh Walker – W Dillon, ND McGoorty, Gunboat
19 Jack Dillon- ND Chip, Greb & Others L Farmer, Walker
20 Frank Goddard – W Smith & Others
21 Dick Smith – W Beckett L Goddard
22 Bombardier Billy Wells – W McGoorty, Beckett
23 Joe Beckett – L Smith, Wells
24 Kid Norfolk – W Flynn, Tate ND Thompson, L Turner
25 Dan Flynn – L Norfolk, Dempsey
26 Tommy Uren – No Fights
27Albert Lloyd – W Clabby, Kay
28 Fred Kay – W Sancher L Lloyd
29 Harry Stone – W O’ Malley & Others
30 Llew Edwards – W Hill & Others
31 Battling Ortega – W Bens, King L King
32 Mick King – W Bens, Ortega L Ortega
33 Leo Bens – L Ortega, King
34 George Chip – L Turner, Bens ND Dillon, Gibbons McGoorty
35 Houck – W Smith D Gunboat ND Levinsky L Wilson
36 Jeff Smith – W Hanlon & Others L Houck
37 Syd Mitchell – No Fights
38 Len Rowlands – No Fights
39 Roddy MacDonald – No Fights
40 Johnny Wilson – W Houck & others L Houck
41 Art Magirl – W Ryan
42 Jimmy Clabby – L Kid Lloyd X 2
43 Willie KO Brennan – ND O Brien
44 Jackie Clarke – No Fights
45 Soldier Bartfield – D Greb & others ND Britton & Others
46 Young Fisher – ND Jamaica Kid & Others

47 Colin Bell – W Cook
48 Billy Miske – W Cowler, Flynn, Christie ND Gunboat & Others L Dempsey
49 Gunboat Smith – ND Walker, Turner, Houck L Weinert, Miske, Dempsey
50 Harry Wills – W McVey, Langford, Clark ND Thompson
51 Langford –L Wills, Johnson, Fulton
52 Joe Jeanette – ND Coffey, Norfolk, Thompson & Others
53 McVey – L Wills
54 Jim Johnson – L Langford ND Jeanette then retired

Dempsey’s pre title run has begun, and it certainly is impressive. He is basically knocking out all the major players in the first five rounds.

Jack Thompson in the top 15 is interesting. Not only is he the leading ranked coloured fighter (with NDs with Wills Langford and Jeanette, but he would go on to face an ancient Jack Johnson!). Possibly a bit of an underated fighter. It will be interesting to see how he fares in coming years.

Albert Lloyd is slowly moving up the rankings. Maybe he was a forgotten player, being the reigning Australian Heavyweight champion and all.

Gunboat smith seems to have really aged and struggled in the last few years. Clearly he is now below top 30 level.

I know this is going to be highly criticised and surely Wills will do something to change the situation, but it seems that neither Langford, McVey, Jeanette or Wills were really in the running for a legitimate shot at Willard.

 

By the way, Greb was really having a tough time of things at this stage, despite his ranking. Soldier Bartfield, in particular seemed to give him some real tough tests.

 

1919
1 Jack Dempsey – W Kellard, Willard & Others
2 Willard – L Jack Dempsey then Retired
3 Johnson – W flint, Cowler, Roper & Others
4 Fred Fulton – W Meehan, Curran & Others
5 Bob Roper – W Devere L Johnson & others
6 Moran – W Geyer L Roper
7 Levinskey – W Coffey ND Greb, Miske, Turner
8 Jim Coffey – W Clifford & Others L Levinskey
9 Harry Texas Tate – W Battling Sanders
10 Harry Wills – W Clark, Langford, Kruvosky, Anderson ND Langford, Jeanette
11 Ole Anderson – W Morris ND Gunboat L Wills, Farmer and Flynn (pre rankings)
12 Carl Morris – W Larue ND Gunboat L Anderson, O BRien
13 Harry Greb – W Turner & Others ND Houck, Turner & Others
14 Clay Turner – W McLuskey L Norfolk, Greb NDGreb, levinsky, Jeanette & Others
15 Willie Meehan – W Langford, Clark, Thompson L La Rue, Fulton ND Greb, Miske
16 Sam Langford – W tate, Thompson L Meehan, Wills D Thompson ND Clarke & Others
17 Jack Thompson – W Clark & Cowler L Meehan, Langford
18 Jamaica Kid – W Hawkins & Others ND Turner & Others L Young battling Nelson, kid Norfolk, Langford
19 Johnny Wilson – W McCarthy, Fisher, London & others
20 Jack London – L Wilson
21 Billy MIske - W Cowler, Brennan ND Gibbons, Norfolk, Greb, Meehan & Others
22 KO Bill Brennan – W petroskey & Others L Miske, Greb
23 Battling Ortega – W Kruvosky & others
24 Eddie Kruvosky –W FArmerL Farmer, Ortega
25 Tommy Gibbons –W Chip, Roper, king, farmer & Others
26 Frank Farmer – W Anderson, King & Others L Krovosky
27 Hugh Walker – ND Smith, Clark, Texas Tate & Others
28 Chuck Wiggins - W Harrison, Kay, Lloyd & Others
29 Phil Harrison – W Dillon L Wiggins
30 Jack Dillon- L Harrison
31 Carpentier – Beckett, Smith & Others
32 Beckett – W Goddard & others L Carpentier
33 Frank Goddard – L Beckett W McLaglen


In an absolutely amazing feat, Jack Johnson, beat a top 10 ranked fighter in Bob Roper, just to prove he was still one of the best fighters in the game. Johnson still holds victories over two of the top 10 ranked fighters. That is pretty much as good as Dempsey, Wills or anyone else!

Harry Wills finally makes the top 10. It took a win over Ole Anderson. Quite amazing, when you consider the trouple Wills/Langford and others had in doing the same.

Georges Carpentier has made an astonishing return. When you see his KO record, along with his previous ranking, it starts to make sense why Dempsey chose him as a challenger.

 

So Dempsey gets knocked out by one punch out cold by a 37 year old journeyman and loses to another Fat journeyman Willie Meehan, while Harry Wills loses because he suffers a broken arm against Jim Johnson...yet you rate Dempsey 7th and Wills 45th?

atsch



Thanx for the list though..and the effort

 

Wills at 50th? He should be # 1!!! Those white gooftroopers Dempsey was destroying were not exceptional fighters.

 

Or perhaps you are just grossely underrating them? They would annihilate those gooftroopers you have ahead of them


In your 1914-1916 list...Johnson, Wills, Langford, Jeanette, McVea should be the top 5

 

Sorry, Suzy, but you cant argue with this one.

These lists I am doing are solely on a who beat who basis. If you want a spot in the top 10, you need to beat a fighter in the top 10. If you do, you go above that fighter and then drop below. To be no1 you have to beat no1. To be no 2 you have to beat no2 etc.

I have included DQs and injury stoppages in wins. All info has come from Boxrec and CBZ, so obviously their may be some minor inaccuracies but the reality is that Jeanette made little impact in the ratings at any stage and McVey wasnt much if any better. Langford moved into the top 10 and looked like he would move forward, but he was unlucky in that he lost to Wills at a crucial time when those above him became vulnerable and they got sidetracked with a series against each other, while others were beating the higher ranked but more vulnerable fighters. IN particular (from memory) there was a loss to Gunboat Smith by one of these fighters that really hurt as Gunboat went on to several losses to fighters who themselves started losses, even to middleweights.

Langford & Co all had their chances to move up, with fights against higher ranked fighters that we would call vulnerable, but his fights all ended in NDs. I had always assumed these were dominant displays by the big 3 but I am not so sure. These ratings seem to play out pretty true to their spots.

One thing which i have noticed, is that it is very common for opponents to struggle early in their career, losing to say all top 30 opponents, then a couple of years later, they start to beat the top 30 opponents and then the top 20s, but lose to the top 10s, and then after a couple more years the move in to the the top 10s and start competing with these guys and beating those from the top 20 or 30. That can only mean one of three things:
1. Standards are dropping as the years roll on (devolution of the sport?)
2. Experience is vastly underated (is it even possible for modern fighters to compete with older ones given their lack of fights?)
3. Fighters rely on confidence and wins over high level opponents realy help (this idea relies on these rankings being fairly accurate and pretty much the way the public or at least fighters saw things in those days. Looking at the matchmaking, this is very plausible).

And by the way, a lot of Langford & Cos wins seemed to be against opponents in this situation, ie they would lose to Langford and then a year or two later, beat a top 10 opponent and start a better run. Whereas Langford, would be stuck either fighting lesser ranked fighters, or NDing with any higher fighers they faced.

 

Then why wasnt Wills fighting and destroying them?

Instead he was NDing with even lesser fighters. Dempseys advantage was clearly that he was no longer NDing, he was KOing and usually in the first round. That is truly phenomenal effort. I have always struggled with where to rank Dempsey, but it is becoming clear why so many rank him at number 1 or thereabouts. Neither Louis or Ali would have had the 1st round KO streak that he had, i am fairly confident of that.

In saying all this, i am sure that Wills is about to burst on the scene. I had thought Willard ducked Wills blatantly, but i dont think he was really in line.

By the way, what do you think of Johnny Thompson. He seemed to have some very good results, even against the big three and many others, yet i have never even really heard of him.

 

1920
1 Jack Dempsey – W Miske, Brennan
2 Johnson – W Wilson, Roberts & Others
3 Harry Wills - W Thompson, Langford, Fulton ND McVey
4 Fred Fulton – W Gunboat, Thompson & others L Wills
5 Charlie Weinert – Roper, Madden & Others
6 Harry Greb – W Gunboat & Others ND Roper and others
7 Bob Roper – W Samson & Others L Weinert, Greb,
8 Moran – W Goddard, Beckett & others ND Fulton
9 Carpentier – w Levinskey & others
10 Noel McCormick – W Gunboat, Roper, Meehan, Flynn, Levinskey D Framer & others
11 Levinskey – W Kenny L Capentier, McCormick ND Turner & Others D Wiggins
12 Jim Coffey – No Fights
13 Harry Texas Tate – ND Gunboat, Moran
14 Martin Burke – W Carbone L Petroskey
15 Frank Carbone – W Pertrosky (& others) L Burke & Others Pre Ranking
16 Jack Perry – W Young Denny
17 Young Denny – W Burke & Others L Carbone, Perry
18 Martin Burke – W Anderson, Meehan & Others L Denny
19 Al Reich – W Anderson & others L Burke
20 KO Bill Brennan – W Anderson & Others L Dempsey ND Meehan, Roper
21 Gene Tunney – W Anderson & others ND Houck
22 Jim Darcy – W Anderson & Palmer L Anderson & Palmer
23 Andy Palmer - W Darcy & others L Darcy
24 Lee Anderson – W Langford & Others L Darcy, Barry
25 Sam Langford – W Godfrey, Herman & Others L Anderson, Thompson
26 Leo Matlock – W Barry & others L
27 Jim Jam Barry – W Anderson L Anderson L Matlock, Langford
28 Tiny Herman – W Anderson & Others L Langford
29 Ole Anderson – L Reich, Brennan, Tunney, Herman, Hector, Bunker
30 Gunboat Smith – W Morris, Meehan L Tate, Fulton, Anderson D Roper
31 Carl Morris – W La Rue L Gunboat Smith


Fair play to Harry Wills, after struggling to break into the ratings, he has now moved ahead of the pack and into the top 3. He would seem a logical Dempsey opponent from this point in time.

Greb is really starting to put together his impressive run, but it is a little strange that his wins are all by newspaper decision (virtually). He cant seem to KO anyone at the top level. Surely this might harm his standing in the eyes of many?

Carpentier returns to the top 10. And his KO streak is as impressive as anyones. I can see why he might have been chosen ahead of Wills and why the Europeans were so excited with his prospects. I wonder, from the carpentier experts, how the 3 year lay off effected him. It cause havoc with Ali, Dempsey and pretty much every other great fighter who took such a break. Was carpentier far better than he had a chance to prove us?

Old Sam Langford is still obviously a decent fighter, but he is fighting pretty much on level terms with those in the 20-30 bracket. I think this is a pretty accurate reflection of his current standing, even though their does seem to be a few guys ranked higher than normal due to the loss of form of Ole Anderson.

Tunney’s early rise is a good indicator of what is to come. It will be interesting to plot his path.

And Billy Miske was never really high in the rankings. As a challenger, it seems as if his ranking was as low as it gets, Probably ranked lower than highly criticised defences like Flynn, Munroe and others. And on par with the likes of Jim Johnson. KO Bill Brennan doesn’t seem to have been much better. A good KO run but not really against the best of the best. Maybe Dempsey’s detractors are starting to have a point.

Bob Roper seems to have been a solid top 10 fighter for a while.

 

Lord, no............. Nat Fleischer (1888-1972) is / was too much and biased to handle....... He's likely to tell anyone who cared to listen that Bob Fitz could KO Cassius Clay in a time machine......... Nat is way too old for the modern world of boxing.......

BUT! He, like myself, rate Jackie Johnson (1878-1946) very high....... I do buy into that fact...

MR.BILL

 

Ranking Harry Wills at 50th in your 1919 rankings might be the worst ranking of all time. Sorry, but it has to be said. 50th? are you kidding me? Name me 3 heavyweights in the world in 1919 that can beat Harry Wills, let alone 49?

 

"Why wasn't Wills fighting and destroying them"

Because they wouldn't fight him. Name a fight against a white opponent that Harry Wills lost or drew prior to the Sharkey fight in 1926. I don't think there is one. He swept his white opponents until he was 37.

Sam McVea also swept his white opponents.

Joe Jeannette lost a close decision to Sandy Ferguson in 1910 or thereabouts, but knocked him out in a return.

Langford did lose here and there to Gunboat Smith and Fred Fulton, but on the whole, the black dynamite fighters simply dominated their white opposition whenever they could get them into the ring.

 

This all reminds somewhat of the way college football used to be when I was young. The southern, southwestern, and Atlantic coast teams would not play teams from the east, Big Ten, or west coast with black players. So the all-white teams only played other all-white teams and if they didn't lose, they were voted by the voters in their regions #1. All bs.

Check the records of Wills, Langford, McVea, and Jeannette against white opponents and you can see why the white fighters generally drew the color line.

 

1921
1 Jack Dempsey – W Carpentier
2 Johnson – W Townsend & Others
3 Harry Wills – W Tate, Clark, Thompson, Smith, MArtin
4 Fred Fulton – W Morris & Others
5 Charlie Weinert – W levinskey & others L Greb
6 Harry Greb – W Weinert & others
7 Bartley Madden – W O Dowd ND Greb, Gibbons, Roper
8 Bob Roper – W Morris, Moran, Burke L Roberts, Burke, O Dowd, Wiggins, McCarthy
9 Carl Morris – W Burke & Levinsky & others L Roper, Fulton
10 Chuck Wiggins - W Burke, Carbone & Others ND Greb, Roper
11 Gene Tunney – W Burke, Levinskey & Others
12 Martin Burke – W coffey & Others L Madden, Morris, Wiggins, Tunney,
13 Al Roberts – W Grande, Roper, L Roper, Weinert
14 Mike Gibbons – W Turner & Others
15 Bill Brennan – W Texas Tate & Others
16 O Dowd – L Gibbons, Levinsky(pre rank), Brennan
17 Young herman Miller W keiser
18 Harry Foley – W Turner, Fitzsimmons & Others
19 Young Fitzsimmons – W Keiser & Others L Foley
20 Billy Shade – L Greb, Wiggins W Lloyd & Others
21 Fay Keiser – Shade, Fitzsimmons, Miller
22 Bob Martin - W Gunboat, moran & Others L Keiser
23 Moran – L Martin, Roper
24 Carpentier – L Dempsey
25 Joe Beckett – W McCormick
26 Ted Kid Lewis – W McCormick
27 Boy McCormick – L Beckett, Lewis
28 Levinskey – W Homer Smith & Others L Weinert, Morris
29 Martin Burke – W Coffey & Others L Morris, Wiggin & Tunney
30 Jim Coffey – W Bolger, Spala L Burke
31 Harvey perkins – L Flynn.
32 Jim Flynn – W Montgomery L Perkins
33 Saul Montgomery – W Tate & Others L Flynn
34 Harry Texas Tate – L Brennan, Montgomery


Wills continues an impressive win streak, but to be honest, he should. The only victim who was top 30 ranked was Gunboat Smith who had lost form and slipped from favour.

Saying that, How unbelievable is the comeback of Denver Ed Martin. The man who debuted the previous century, and who was mixing it up with the likes of Hank Griffin, Fred Russell and Gus Ruhlin, and who lost his coloured championship to Jack Johnson actually entered the top 30 by beating 28th ranked Tiny Herman and would have entered the top 3 if he had beaten Harry Wills. One can only assume, that if Wills was anything but in his prime and one of the legitimate top 5 fighters, Martin might just have won. How interesting would that have been to see Johnson and Martin ranked 1 and 2! If these guys can compete like this at their age, does it suggest that maybe the old timers of the day were correct when they suggested that they don’t make fighters like they used to? What would they have done if they were in their prime? And arguably, by that same logic, what would the champs of their time like Jeffries and Fitzsimmons and even Ruhlin and Sharkey have done.

Gunboat Smith and Sam Langford both leave the top 30. Gunboat in particular had a few attempts to get back in but was clearly past it. Jim Coffey looks like he will follow suit. I have to say, anyone outside the top 15 really isn’t in calculations. In fact, Bob Roper looks like age is catching him and while he is struggling on the fringe of the top 10 I think that anyone below him will be a non factor, this time next year.