What if Ring Magazine rankings had existed during Jack Johnsons career?

It is clear that Godfrey was a hell of a lot better than his records indicate. In fact, perhaps Dempsey also ducked Godfrey? Still, any fair rankings still needs to assume that official results are legitimate, imo. Even though they often are not.

I dont really blame Wills for sitting on his ranking and not fighting Tunney or Tunney for taking the easier path against Wills instead of Godfrey. It is all risk vs reward. But when the problem i have is when the path chosen works or fails out come all the claims of ducking or whatever. Who do you think wins - Wills or Godfrey?

 

This must have been changed then ,because a 40 year old Willard had 2 fights in New York in 1923 against Floyd Johnson ,and Luis Firpo.
Langford would only just been under that for his 1919 fight with Wills in NY.
Wills himself would have been 37-38 when he fought Uzcudun and Sharkey in NY,in 1923.

 

Prime for Prime..Harry Wills. Post 1924....George Godfrey

 

I think Bob Fitzsimmons had problems with this rule also, didnt he?

He appealed it and lost in about 1914.

 

Willard was claiming a birthdate of 1887 while he was active.

Langford's birthdate was also in doubt.

Wills turned 37 in 1926 when he fought Sharkey. Again, I don't know what birthdate he was claiming while active.

Anyway, I'm sure Muldoon usually didn't enforce this rule. He enforced it against Johnson because it was "any excuse will do" and this was the handiest excuse. Muldoon's claim that Johnson was too old is in UNFORGIVABLE BLACKNESS.

Archie Moore and Sugar Ray Robinson fought in New York when past forty in the 1960's, but the rule may have been loosened by then.

 

Your explanation is certainly very feasible, Johnson was not wanted.
Thanks for the reply.

Strangely Johnson only fought in NY ONCE,1906 a defence of his Coloured title against Jeanette.

 

1926
1 Gene Tunney – W Dempsey
2 Jack Dempsey – L Tunney
3 George Godfrey – W Lawson & Others L Sharkey, Wiggins(Pre rank)
4 Yale Okun – w Lawson L Scozza
5 Bob Lawson - W Seifurt L Godfrey, Okun
6 Battling Norfolk - W Godfrey, Johnson D Simmons
7 Willy Henry – W Simmons, Norfolk & others
8 Brad Simmons – W Johnson & Others L Henry
9 Johnson – L Lawson, Norfolk, Simmons
10 Tommy Loughran - W Risko, Delaney burke Wiggins & othesr
11 Jack Delaney – Fitzsimmons, Risko, Gorman & others
12 Mike McTigue – W Flowers & others L Delaney
13 Bud Gorman – L Gains, Sharkey (pre rank), Delaney
14 Pat McCarthy – L Sharkey (pre rank) D Risko
15 Jim Maloney – W Persson
16 Harry Perrson – L Gorman, McCarthy,Maloney,
16 George Manley – W Risko ND Loughran
17 Johny Risko – W L Delaney, Stribling, Gates, Mctigue, Loughran, Persson, Manley
18 Leo Gates – W Thompson, Berlenbach L risko
19 Paul Berlenbach – W Stribling L Risko, Delaney
20 Young Stribling – W Risko& Others L Berlenbach
21 Maxie Rosenbloom – W Flowers & Others
22 Mickey Walker – W Flowers & Others
23 Tiger Flowers – W Greb, Fitzsimmons & Others L Rosenbloom, Walker
24 Lou Bogash –W Robson & Others
25 Sandy Siefert – W Demave, L Lawson
26 Jack Demave – L Renault(Pre rank), Siefert
27 Young Bob fitzsimmons – L Delaney, Risko, DeMave,


It is interesting that Tunney sparred with Delaney prior to the Dempsey fight. According to these rankings, Delaney was one of the top contenders and may have even deserved a shot ahead of Tunney. Delaney was only a light heavy, but I think he might have been still a good fighter. He was on a heck of an underated streak.

Age and inactivity has finally caught up to Jack Johnson. It will be interesting to see whether those that beat him can hold a top place, or whether they will open the ranking right up

This is definitely Tommy Loughran’s best year, he is starting to beat some solid if somewhat older heavys. Sharkey is performing better than his ranking suggests. He has recent wins over most of numbers 10-20, with his wins coming a little to early for his ranking to show.

 

1927
1 Gene Tunney – W Dempsey
2 Jack Dempsey – W Sharkey L Tunney
3 George Godfrey – W Townsend & others
4 Tommy Loughran - Risko, Stribling, Slattery & Others
5 Jim Slattery – W Rosenbloom, Risko & Others L Loughran
6 Tom Heeney – W Risko, Delaney, Gorman & Others L Uzcuden (pre rank) D Uzcuden
7 Johnny Risko – W Delaney, Uzcuden L Loughran, Slattery, Heeney
8 Lou Bogash – W Scozza – L Kirby (pre rank)
9 Young Stribling - L loughran W Wiggins, Rosenbloom & Others
10 Lou Scozza – L Risko, Bogash stribling
11 Maxie Rosenbloom – L Stribling, Scozza, Slattery,
12 Art Weigand – W Sagulero & others L Stribling & Others (pre rank)
13 Goyito Rico – W Sagulero
14 Roleaux Sagulero – L weigand, Rico
15 Benny Ross – L Rosenbloom, Stribling, Lougran, Sagulero
16 Knute Hansen – W Scott L Uzcuden (pre rankings)
17 Phil Scott – w okun & Others L Hansen, Risko
18 Martin Burke – W Vidabek, Jamaica Kid & Others L Gains (pre rank)
19 Billy Vidabek - W Okun & others L Bogash, Scozza, Burke
20 George Manley - W Smith, Wiggins, Kilrain & Others
21 Bearcat Wright - W Tate, Wiggins, Lawson & Others
22 Bob Lawson – L Bearcat Wright
23 Yale Okun – W Schaaf L Scott, Vidabek, Manley, Lawson

Godfrey had a lot of wins this year, but none were really ranked that highly it seems.

I have to say that Chuck Wiggins is a solid journeyman. His name seems to regularly crop up on up and coming fighters records.

Interesting to see the name Jake Kilrain crop up on a contenders record. I wonder if he is any relation to the former great. More than likely he would be.

Looking at the list, with the exception of Uzcuden & sharkey who beat several contenders just before those contenders rose up the rankings, I think the ratings have started to right themselves. It is a pretty realistic top 10.

 

1928
1 Gene Tunney – W Heeney
2 Roberto Roberti – w Risko & others L Scott
3 Jim Maloney – W Renault, Risko, Demave & Others
4 Earnie Schaaf – W Gorman, Risko & Others L Peterson (pre rank)
5 Johnny Risko – W Sharkey, Godfrey, Wright L Roberti, Maloney, Schaaf
6 Gains – W McCarthy & Others
7 George Godfrey – L Risko, Gains
8 Tommy Loughran – W Peterson & Others
9 Jim Slattery – W Vidabenk & others
10 Tom Heeney – D Sharkey, W Delany L Tunney
11 Phil Mecurio – W Bogash
12 Lou Bogash – L Mercurio
13 Young Stribling – W Wiggins & Others
14 George Manley – W Scozza, Okun & Others

I have shortened these rankings substantially. Rosenbloom was in the top 20 and Eddie Lawson and Bearcat Wright would have been top 30 or so. But, realistically, other than Sharkey and UZcuden, and perhaps Lawson, wright and co, these guys were largely campaining at the lower weights. As it is, light heavyweight Loughran and Young Stribling look to be as highly ranked as anyone.

With Tunney retiring,It looks like Roberto Robert might have a claim for a championship! I must say, I am fairly sure that Godfreys cuffs have had a fair say in finding Tunneys predecessor. It is a real shame because we will never know. The next couple of years will be quite interesting to see if Sharkey Schmelling and co make a move.

 

Here are the actual Ring ratings for these years;

1924
Jack Dempsey, Champion
Harry Wills
Tommy Gibbons
Charley Weinert
Quintin Romero Rojas
Jack Renault
Luis Angel Firpo
George Godfrey
Jim Maloney
Erminio Spalla

1925
Jack Dempsey, Champion
Harry Wills
Gene Tunney
Jack Renault
Bud Gorman
George Godfrey
Jack Sharkey
Bob Fitzsimmons
Paolino Uzcudun
Jim Maloney
Harry Persson
King Solomon
Johnny Risko
Ray Neuman
Jim Keeley

1926
Gene Tunney, Champion
Jack Dempsey
Jack Sharkey
Jim Maloney
Paolino Uzcudun
Harry Wills
Jack Renault
Harry Persson
Knute Hansen
Johnny Risko
Sully Montgomery
Sandy Seifert
Jack DeMave
Monte Munn
Arthur De Kuh

1927
Gene Tunney, Champion
Jack Dempsey
Jack Sharkey
Tom Heeney
Johnny Risko
Paolino Uzcudun
Jack Delaney
Vittorio Campolo
George Godfrey
Knute Hansen
Jack Dorval
Jack Renault
Arthur De Kuh
Phil Scott
George Cook

1928
Title Vacant
Young Stribling
George Godfrey
Paolino Uzcudun
Jack Sharkey
Knute Hansen
Jim Maloney
Johnny Risko
Phil Scott
Tom Heeney
Otto von Porat

1929
Title Vacant
Jack Sharkey
Max Schmeling
George Godfrey
Tuffy Griffith
Phil Scott
Otto von Porat
Young Stribling
Johnny Risko
Primo Carnera
Vittorio Campolo

 

1929
1 Roberto Delfino – w Roberto Roberti then retired
2 Phil Scott – W Campolo & Others
3 Victorio Campolo – W Roberti, Heeney L Phil Scott
4 Roberto Roberti – w L Delfino, Campolo
5 Armand Emannuel W Maloney L Loughran (pre ranking)
6 Johnny Risko – W Maloney, Schaaf
7 Jim Maloney – L Bertazolo, Gagnon, Risko
8 Les Kennedy – W Christner, Demave & Others
9 KO Christner - W Risko, Schaaf, L Maloney, Kennedy, Sharkey & Uzcuden (pre rank)
10 Earnie Schaaf – L Krisner, Risko
11 Jack Gagnon - W mctigue, MaloneyL Emmanuel, Schaaf
12 Ricardo Bertazzolo W Maloney, L Maloney
13 Bearcat Wright – W Hawkins & Others
14 Tom Hawkins – W Godfrey & Othrs ND Wright
15 George Godfrey – W Wiggins & Others L hawkins
16 Chuck Wiggins – W Gains & Others L Godfrey
17 Gains – w cook l wiggins

Absolute Mayhem at the top. Defino beats Roberti but retires, Campolo does to, but is beaten by the underated Phil Scott, who will be challenging Jack Sharkey next year.

 

You have to admit, when you look at the rankings I posted, a lot of the names you dont think of do crop up in the ring rankings. Names like Rojas, Person, Hansen, Scott, Campolo, DeMave, Seifert, montgomery etc.

It would be even more accurate, if you took out the guys with wins that are campaining solely for lighter weights, and if you used a touch of discretion with wins over guys who would later in the year go on to cause upsets. Also, obvious results such as bad DQs clear NDs etc or where fighter A or B loses so many in a row they are no longer (obviously) appropriate contenders and nor are some of the guys who beat them. I think the ordering that is produced is usually pretty reasonable, despite some of the obvious abnormalities. I am not sure how far i will end up taking this, but it will be interesting to see how things look in upcoming years.

 

1930
1 Max Schmelling – W Sharkey
2 Jack Sharkey W Scott, L Schmelling
3 Young Stribling – W Scott, Christner, Porat & Others
4 Phil Scott –L Sharkey, Stribling
5 Tuffy Griffiths – W Risko, Heeney & others L Stribling
6 Otto Von Porat – W Renault L Uzcuden, Stribling (pre rank)
7 Jack Renault – W Hunt, & others L Schaaf, Loughran (pre rank), Van Porat
8 Jack Dorval – W Hansen, Hunt and others
9 Al Fay – W Hunt and others L Daniels (pre rank)
10 Babe Hunt – W Hansen, Braddock, Schaaf, Risko & others L Renault, Dorval, Fay
11 Con Okelly – W Friedman & Others L Gagnon (pre rank)
12 Friedman – W Daniels L Gagnon & Others(pre Rank)
13 Dick Daniels – W Hunt, Christner, Fay, L Friedman ND loughran
14 Mickey Walker – W Mahoney, Risko, Christner & others
15 Johnny Risko – W Campolo, L Griffiths, Hunt, Daniels, Walker
16 Victorio Campolo – L Risko
17 Larry Gains – W Roberti & Others
18 Pierre Charles – W Roberti & Others L Loughran (pre Rank)
19 Roberto Roberti – L Gains, Charles W Benson & Others
20 Primo Carnera – W Godfrey, Christner, Bearcat Wright, Uzcuden L Maloney (pre rank)
21 Uzcuden – W Porat & Others L Risko, Carnera
22 Les Kennedy – L Uzcuden W Baer & Others (Pre Rank)
23 Al Moro – W Emanuel & Others L Kennedy
24 Armand Emannuel – L Maloney, W Maloney
25 Jim Maloney – W Emanuel, Friedman, Carnera L Emanuel, Risko
26 Ernie Schaaf – W Christner, Loughran, Baer L Schaaf
27 Max Baer – W Christner & others L Schaaf & Kennedy
28 KO Christner – W L Schaaf, Carnera, Baer, Stribling, Walker


So, Phil Scott starts the year ranked number 5 by the ring and number 1 under the win loss rankings.
I know there are lots of critics of this system, but it is quite amazing that as soon as Tunney retires, we within a year, the number one and two fighters are Jack Sharkey and Max Schmelling, which is by sheer coincidence, the exact two fighters, who took part in the world heavyweight title fight that year. Quite impressive, I think.
Babe Hunt seemed to have some huge wins, considering some of the fighters he also lost to. Massively inconsistent or tank jobs? Or have I underated some opponents because I know nothing about them?

Looking at the top 10, i am going to go out on a limb and say that it will not be too far from the Ring magazines top 10 list.

 

1931
1 Max Schmelling – W Stibling
2 Jack Sharkey D Walker, W Carnera
3 Young Stribling – W Fay & Others L Sharkey
4 Larry Gains – W Scott, Renault & Others
5 Phil Scott –L Gains Then Retired
6 King Levniskey - L Carnera, Risko & others (pre rank)
7 Tommy Lougran – Baer, Schaaf, Campolo & others L Levinskey
8 Ernie Schaaf – Maloney, Campolo Griffiths & Others L Loughran
9 Tuffy Griffiths – W Levinsky & others L Loughran, Schaaf
10 Otto Von Porat – W Pearson & Others
11 Hein Mueller – W Charles & others
12 Pierre Charles – W Renault & Others L Mueller
13 Jack Redman – W Mays, Christner
14 Harold Mays – W Renault, Galento, Christner L Redman
15 Jack Renault – W L Charles, Mays, Gains
16 Jack Dorval – W Daniels, Galento & others L Schaaf
17 Al Fay – No Fights
18 Paul Swiderski – W Hunt & Others
19 Walter Cobb - W Hunt & others
20 Poreda – W Cobb, Risko, Hunt & others
21 Babe Hunt – W Christner L Swiderdki,Cobb, poreda
22 Giacomo Bergomas – W OKelly, D Heeney L Schaaf
23 Con Okelly – L Levinsky, Bergomas, Griffiths
24 Maxie Rosenbloom – W Daniels & Others NC Braddock
25 Dick Daniels L Schaaf, Dorval, Rosenbloom
26 Buck Everett – W Friedman & others
27 Al Friedman – W L Daniels, Everett
28 Mickey Walker – W Christo, Risko, Bearcat Wright & others D Sharkey


With Scott Retirring, I feel pretty confident that the top 10 will be getting closer and closer to what the ring suggests in their ratings system.

And someone like say Stanley Poreda who is never remembered today really was putting together a pretty impressive win streak. It is interesting that someone like Max Baer has not yet been tested against a top 10 fighter. And the mid 20s fighters seem to be giving him as much as he can take.

Con o Kelly looks like the first fighter to go into a rash of defeats for a while. Though two of the fighters were actually top 10 fighters so maybe it isn’t too bad. And the other won drew with Tom Heeney who was a top 10 rranked fighter and lost to top 10 fighter Ernie Schaaf. So again, not too bad.

 

1932
1 Jack Sharkey - W Schmelling
2 Max Schmelling – W Walker L Sharkey
3 Stanley Poreda – W Schaaf, Carnera, Loughran
4 Max Baer – W Griffiths, Schaaf, Cobb, Heeney & others
5 Ernie Schaaf – W Stribling & Others L Poreda, Baer & Winston
6 Unknown Winston – W Shaaf, Cobb & others L Schaaf
7 Young Stribling – W Ambrose Palmer, Renault & others L Schaaf
8 Walter Neusal – W Gains, Gypsy Daniels & others
9 Larry Gains – W Carnera & others L Neusal
10 Johnny Risko – W Walker, Griffiths, Levinsky
11 Mickey Walker – W Levinskey, Uzcuden, Mahoney L Risko, Schmelling
12 Primo Carnera – W GAgney, Laskey, Levinsky & others L Gains, Poreda
13 King Levniskey - L Baer, Walker, Risko, Carnera W Uzcuden
14 Tommy Lougran – w HamasL Hamas, Poreda
15 Steve Hamas - W Lougran, Emanuel L Lee Ramage, Loughran
16 Lee Ramage – W Hamas & Others L Hamas
17 Tuffy Griffiths – W Ramage, L Risko & Baer
18 Otto Von Porat – W Grisselle, Mueller
19 McCorkindale – W Mueller & others L Carnera, Gains (pre rank), Grisselle, Stribling
20 Maurice Grisselle – W McCorkindale & Others W L Carnera, McCorkindale
21 Pierre Charles – W Stanley, Mueller L Carnera
22 Hein Mueller – W carvill, Meeen L McCorkindale, Charles, Porat
23 Maxie Rosenbloom – W W Redman, Fox, Lewis & Others
24 Tiger Jack Fox – W Christner, Redman & Others L Rosenbloom
25 Jack Redman – W L Fox, Rosenbloom


Stanley Pereda continues an impressive win streak it seems he deserves no 3 spot. Full Credit to Phil Scott, who retires in a top 10 position. This means that like everyone he did start to lose to fighters, but only the very best fighters, who themselves rarely lost.