What if the rumble in the jungle moved to the air-conditioning of Madison Square Gar?

Interesting observations Magoo. It takes guts to start questioning the validity of the fight, I'll say that.

I don't know about a fix though. For one thing, both Ali and Foreman received their fair share of punches during the fight. Could George, a terrific hitter, be sure that one of those blows didn't end proceedings for Ali?

To me the knockout looks legitimate. I would imagine any fixed fight would involve a knockout that looks more like a "knockout", with the victim flat on his back or face, not making any effort to get up.
Besides, I'd imagine enacting a knockout sequence that looks believable for the millions watching isn't as easy as it sounds.

Nonetheless, your observations have been interesting to read.

 

An air-conditioned Foreman still gets clubbed.

 

If Ali-Foreman being fixed is plausible, then Ali-Bugner is even more plausible.

The fight took place in Malaysia, the largest muslim population in the world, they didn't invite Ali and Bugner over to see Ali get beat. Bugner didn't seem to make any real effort to win the fight, despite the fact that he had done better against a younger Ali a couple of years earlier, and he had physical advantages over Ali. Bugner was seen drinking champagne and swimming in the hotel pool with a big smile on his face straight after the fight.

Obviously, the two Liston fights were fixed, and Magoo's observations about Foreman-Ali on this thread cannot fail to convince that it was probably fixed, and the Bugner fight must have been fixed, IMO. And Norton 3 and Young were pre-determined GIFT decisions ie. FIXED. Doug Jones fight was a gift, Ali was "helped" by the split glove shennanigans against Cooper. And the referee in Frazier 2 was crooked, he probably had money on Ali to win on points .
It's becoming clear that Ali was the biggest fraud and beneficiary of fight fixing since Primo Carnera !!!

 

Ali was the most "fixed" champ in history

 

What do you make of Foreman's own claim that he was poisened? He still believes that to this day.

 

Honestly, I don't know what to make of it. But that's the whole thing though. As time goes on, the story keeps changing. For years we've heard things like, " the ropes were too lose ", or " Foreman suffered from heat exhaustion ", now " Foreman was poisened ". I've also heard George mention something about suffering some sort of a cut in training on the champions forever documentary which was released around 1989.

Do I really think the fight was fixed? Probably not. Muhammad Ali was one of my favorite champions, and the Foreman fight was possibly his greatest masterpiece. I would hate to think that it was a fraud. In all likelyhood, he was just the wrong type of fighter for George's style, and their may be some validity to the whole heat exhaustion thing. I just think that the fight was surrounded by some very bizarre circumstances, and the ever changing stories over the years make it even more peculiar.

 

I can always appreciate your dry sense of humor Sonny. The fact however, is that I'm not truley scrutinizing Ali's victory over Foreman as being a fix. My point was that I felt the fight had some very bizarre components surrounding it, and if looked at from certain angles, the outcome might appear questionable. But, I probably think that it was on the level.

 

I concur the fight was bizarre.

The "cut" on Foreman referred to earlier was an eye cut in training.

The fight was delayed 30 days for George's eye to mend....that was
when I first heard of a "butterfly bandage" that the media referred to
and they showed a picture of George bandaged eye.

Ali said he would fight George right then and wouldn't even try to
hit the cut eye.

 

Hey, dont back out on me now, magoo. We're in this thing together.
On the level ?! You must be kidding.
(Hey, I know you gotta keep the truth about this thing kinda hush-hush, so, yeah, let's pretend we think it's on the level. LOL)
:good

Seriously though, I think Foreman was trying to win, but the idea that he was poisoned (and that Dick Sadler perhaps poisoned him) does have some credence, IMO.
Foreman fought as if he was drugged. He looked like he was falling asleep after 4 or 5 rounds. And Dick Sadler was a crooked guy who Foreman didn't trust.
But George was fighting dumb anyway. I think it was lack of experience, that was the main thing.

For all his flaws, (and I believe other good boxers could stand a great chance of beating that reckless version of Foreman), Foreman is arguably the greatest heavyweight ever. We will never again see a heavyweight come out of a 10-year retirement in obscurity and launch a comeback that sees him starting from scratch again, racking up a string of wins against journeymen, go the distance with good champions and top ranked fighters in his 40s, and win the championship by KO at age 45.
People can say it was manufactured and staged, and the product masterful media manipulation, but they forget that Foreman's comeback was his own making, and when he embarked on it as a 266 pound relic, the odds were really against him getting past the likes of Steve Zouski and Rocky Sekorski really.

 

Interesting thread of comments, guys, but, lest we end up believing Godzilla lurks in the sewers of New York City, let's clarify it actually was Foreman and Ali in that jungle ring and, according to the physics of boxing, Ali simply outfought Foreman that night.

A benefit of being a boxing fan in 2008 is we can sit in air-conditioned comfort and watch action in the ring frame by frame. Foreman's murderous intentions are there for all to see in his huge shots, particularly in Rounds 1, 5and 7 (what an uppercut). But, as Frazier said, "George is fightin' stupid", and as Foreman said, "I know I hurt him as much as I hurt any other man in the ring, but he [Ali] would just stand there and wake up again...He could not let people fall that night, it was like he was sacrificing himself."

It was Ali's greatest performance, equaled only by his wonderful postfight interview rant, "I told you!!! I'm the real champion!!! [Frost nodding at camera] I told you!!! I'm the champion of the world!!! All you suckers, crawl!!!...Don't go to no Jimmy the Greek!!! Come to MOEhammad Ali!!! I AM THE MAN!!!"

 

Yeah, seriously of course Foreman didn't throw the fight.

As for the location being fixed, well, all fights have a fixed location.

 

I'll never know what to make of Foreman's claim of being poisoned. Maybe there is some merit to it, then again it may be all bull****. The fact is, people will be arguing the reasons for Foreman's loss for many years to come, and even if it was a fix ( which I doubt ), we'll never know for sure. As for his comeback, there has always been and always will be ex-champions trying to take one last stab at rekindling their greatness. I agree however, that it is unlikely that another champion will ever launch a comeback that will amount to the magnitude of the one that Foreman embarked on between 1987-1997. It was because of his second career, compiled with the accomplishments of his first, that I have him rated as one of the best ever.