What if there was no Charles or Walcott?

"On June 6, 1950, Lee Savold defeated Bruce Woodcock on a fourth round cut eye stoppage to win the EBU version of the World Heavyweight title, Savold had lost on a foul in their first meeting in 1948.

On June 17, 1951 he fought Joe Louis in what was the first professional prizefight carried to theaters on closed circuit TV. He was knocked out in 2 minutes 29 seconds of the sixth round. Although it was a non-title match, after this bout the EBU withdrew recognition of Savold as "world" champion.[7][8]

In his last fight, he lasted 7 rounds before being TKO'd by legendary boxer Rocky Marciano on February 13, 1952

 

They were ,Woodcock emphatically was not!

 

Even if the Oma fight was on the level, and it did stink from all reports, Woodcock would probably have been able to knock out the glass-jawed Oma. That was my only point. Oma's whole career was so weird that it is hard to tell anything. I think he was a head case, often totally out of shape even for big fights. He supposedly only trained 10 days for a title shot at Charles.

that said, I agree that Woodcock is very unlikely to get very far in a round robin against the better heavies of the time, even with Charles and Walcott out of the mix.

As for Oma, with his sloppy training habits, I don't see him beating almost any reasonable heavy in a 15 round fight. I would take Cesar Brion over Oma in a 15 rounder.

 

I don't know what there is to be so emphatic about.

I think you are being too hard on yourself here. You seem too desperate to dumb down your own countryman and promote the horizontal British heavyweight myth. British heavyweights in the ratings only ever should be measured against other contenders in the top ten rather than champions. In truth, Once you get past actual champions ALL contenders of every nationality are as horizontal as each other.

There is literally no more shame in Woodcock losing to much heavier Baksi any more than any amount of American heavyweights also losing. Bob baker got sparked by Satterfeild. Satterfeild got sparked by Layne. Oma was sparked many a time. Savold sparked by Ray and ten other men. Ray was sparked by Turkey Thompson and 8 other guys. Turkey was laid out by Al Hart. That's a lot of other horizontal heavyweights isn't it? The whole division.

Mauriello might have knocked out Woodcock but Mauriello also lost to guys Woodcock beat like Lesnavich and Oma. Baksi lost to guys Woodcock beat too like Savold and Oma. So we can all be very wise after the event.

This is why the thread is so wide open to possibilities once you get past guys who were the real world champions.

It seems you are desperate to eliminate Woodcock to make yourself appear more knowledgeable despite evidence showing Woodcock was as legitimately placed as high as anyone else at exactly the time in question which seems very bizarre.

Whether Brucie would have won a title or not has never been the question. At one point, if you take out Louis, Walcott and Charles as the thread asks, there was a window where Woodcocks credentials matched anyone. He would have surly landed a title fight at that point.

Think of Gerrie Coetzee. He kept landing WBA title fights because of the big crowds he drew in South Africa.

 

I remember reading Reg Gutterages book years ago,his Dad was involved with the woodcock Oma fight and said it was a tank job! Apparently Oma even winked at his corner man as he was being counted out.

 

Welcome to the forum.

Yes, I have The same book. For balance I also have a copy of Woodcocks book and he had a slightly different view. So where does it leave us?

Whilst Woodcock admitted it was an unsatisfactory fight for the fans Brucie felt Oma was hitting hard enough to want to steal the fight.

"Oma seemed more casual than ever, and I was convinced he was gambling everything on being able to surprise me with a single viscous blow" -and he landed a few of those.

woodcocks corner told him to go in and finish it off.

"I hit him four square on the point of the jaw. He went down like a log, to lie on his back with eyes closed and a trickle of blood running from his nostrils"

Oma had beat such men as Lou Nova, Mauriello, Baksi and Lesnevich. He also took Walcott to a split decision.

 

When I assess fighters their origins don't come into it.
Ive told you there is a great deal of suspicion about Woodcock's wins over both Oma and Savold so that point does not stand.
I don't think his credentials matched anyone's at all!
When they fought Woodcock:
Baksi had beaten
Nova
Barlund
Savold
Mauriello
Shkor
Dorazio

Mauriello had beaten
Barlund
Oma
Dudas
Savold
Musto

Savold had beaten
Dorazio
Baksi
Franklin
Nova
Musto
When he fought Baksi Woodcock had beaten no ranked heavyweights , his best win was over Lesnevich in 46, Gus was not ranked.
When he fougth Mauirello Woodcock had beaten no one!
When he fought Savold Woodcock had beaten Oma = fix Lesnevich unranked.
I find it singularly unrewarding debating with you ,so I'm calling a halt to it now.

 

I think you mean to say When you asses fighters it seems only cliches and popular opinion come into it.

Did you count the losses those guys had as well? Often the division needs a fresh face who sells tickets and has beat the same guys without the same kind of losses. Remember this is without hindsight.

Once again you cling to cliches and popular opinion using only hindsight. This thread requires more thinking outside the box.

All we are saying is any division is wide open once you takeaway the best three of a 4 year stretch. Think of the 1964 -67 Without Ali, Terrell and Liston? People like Doug Jones would feature more importantly than they did for the period. Think of 1978-81 without Holmes and Weaver? Coetzee or even Ocasio might have featured more. There is bound to be a Woodcock type thrown into the mix who won't necessarily become champ but under that scenario will feature more prominently all the same.

In these circumstances you can only be emphatic about guys who were not in the ratings and not winning big fights.

Woodcock was British champion, European champion and Champion of the commonwealth countries. He beat Fredie Mills, Bert Gilroy even before beating rated Americans like Savold and Oma.