What is a Champion? And what does Undisputed at HW mean to you?

Finkel · Feb 8, 2024

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Usyk carries himself like a Champion, and for that he is well loved. But are either Fury or Usyk fulfilling the duties of a Champion? And if not, what does Undisputed mean to you?

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Personally, I am not happy about this fight happening "next", now that it is being pushed back yet again to sometime in 2024. Had the fight happened in early 2023, fair enough. We would have established the clear best of the division. But now? They are barely what I would consider champions.

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let's compare the TBRB* rankings from the end of 2023 to today.

12/12/2022 - Wins over top 10
C Usyk (1W - Joshua)
1 Fury (2W - Wilder, Wallin)
2 Joyce (1W - Parker)
3 Wilder (1W - Ortiz)
4 Joshua (3W - Whyte, Parker, Ruiz Jr.)
5 Ruiz Jr. (2W - Joshua, Ortiz)
6 Whyte (1W - Parker)
7 Wallin (0W)
8 Ortiz (0W)
9 Parker (1W - Ruiz Jr.)
10 Sanchez (0W)

11/11/2023 - Wins over today's top 10
C Usyk (1W - Joshua)
1 Fury (1W - Wallin)
2 Zhang (1W - Joyce)
3 Joshua (0W)
4 Wallin (0W)
5 Hrgovic (1W - Zhang)
6 Anderson (0W)
7 Bakole (0W)
8 Sanchez (0W)
9 Makhmudov (0W)
10 Joyce (0W)

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let's look at what the "champions" have been doing of late:
Tyson Fury -
2022
WBC mandatory fight = Whyte (#3 TBRB, now unranked)
WBC voluntary fight = Chisora 3 (unranked, now unranked)
2023
MMA debutant fight = Ngannou (unranked debut, now unranked)

Oleksandr Usyk -
2022
WBA, IBF, WBO voluntary fight = Joshua 2 (#2 TBRB, now #3)
2023
WBA mandatory fight = Daniel Dubois 26/08/2023 (unranked, now unranked)

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let's look at when each belt was defended against a mandatory challenger, and what Undisputed means for the next in line.

WBC
April 2022 - Dillian Whyte; No current mandatory challenger
WBA
August 2023 - Daniel Dubois; No current mandatory challenger
IBF
December 2020 - Kubrat Pulev
WBO
September 2021 - Oleksandr Usyk

This means if the Undisputed fight happens next, and its expected rematch, the IBF won't have been defended for 4 years by the time Philip Hrgovic gets a shot at the title.
Similarly, the WBO won't have been defended for 3 years, and with the mandatory Zhilei Zhang will be looking at 2025, he will be around 42 years old before he gets his first title shot!

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One man, one name?

*I'm not using The Ring because they are "inconsistent" with how they apply their own rules for inactive fighters.

N17 · Nov 10, 2023

It only really matters at any weight to me if there is a genuine split of opinion on who's the best.

Most of the time we basically know, have a majority opinion as a group who the best in each weight is, the only time unifications and undisputed fights mean anything to me is when opinion is sharply divided.

Because, for me, it goes back to the old question.. do belts honour fighters or do fighters honour belts?

Finkel · Nov 10, 2023

N17 said: ↑

It only really matters at any weight to me if there is a genuine split of opinion on who's the best.

Most of the time we basically know, have a majority opinion as a group who the best in each weight is, the only time unifications and undisputed fights mean anything to me is when opinion is sharply divided.

Because, for me, it goes back to the old question.. do belts honour fighters or do fighters honour belts?
Click to expand...

Great point, but I would add, do fighters honour the idea of being a champion?

I don't think there is a debate at present over who is number 1, though. Every ranking system has Usyk at the top, except for ESPN which let's face it would be like DAZN releasing a list and putting Joshua at #1. And among the fans, it's only Fury's most loyal supporters that still rank him there. Then add in his showing against Ngannou, and the 2023 that Zhang just had, and it isn't clear who #2 is any more.

But everything is on hold for another year so the two guys holding up the division can cash in. For Usyk he is basically collecting the last belt against a guy who very well might be shot to bits, instead of fighting in-form contenders. And the less said about what Fury is up to the better. The actual contenders are yet again being forced to (A) sit on the side-line acquiring ring rust, (B) take meaningless tune ups, or (C) do the job of the actual champions by taking on actual top 10 contenders.

I don't know if getting Undisputed next will be the magic bullet that will put the sport back on top that some think it is. It will certainly be good for the winner's future earnings. Not so good for the rest of the division.

ikrasevic · Nov 10, 2023

Finkel said: ↑

What is a Champion? And what does Undisputed at HW mean to you?
Click to expand...

Since boxing is a business, not a sport (and it is more and more a business and less and less a sport), I look at the matter differently.
Holders of belts (if boxing were a sport) would schedule a fight for the undisputed champion for a minimum payment to show first of all to themselves, and then to the world, who is No.1.
In Olympic boxing, where boxing is a sport, it is impossible not to know who is the undisputed, lineal champion.
Also, the question "what does Olympic champion mean to me?" cannot be asked, because such a question would not make sense.
It is well known what a lineal champion (a man who beat a man) is. Boxing history made the lineal HW Champion the way it made him, and he stays that way until he retires, or someone beats him IN THE RING.
We had a situation in the HW category where the undisputed champion was not the lineal champion (the Tyson and Spinks situation). And how would the world view Tyson if he didn't beat Spinks, and how did the world view him when he beat Spinks?
The champion is Fury, I liked him, or he was the most disgusting man in the world.

gollumsluvslave · Nov 11, 2023

Personally, I'm less concerned about Usyk v Fury being some legitimate undisputed, and more about dispelling or confirming the narrative that Fury is some fast, high-IQ ATG heavyweight.

I think Fury knows full well that Usyk is a VERY hard fight for him, not so much in terms of gruelling punishment, but in terms of being befuddled and made to look slow and lumbering, and - worst case - being outright schooled.

This is why I think Fury and his camp have been trying to either age Usyk out, or simply make circumstances such that it never happens.

That said, IF Fury can get in the ring, even with this obviously declining Usyk and either win or be as competetive AJ was, I will be hugely surprised and look far more favourably on Fury who I've always seens as mostly smoke & mirrors. Ironically, the attempts to age Usyk out seem to have aged Fury out just as much, combined with the Wilder trilogy

I do agree with the op though that it's quite ridculous how this pony show as held up the heavyweight division, and been a real bind for fighters like Zhang, Hrgovic (even Joyce before the Zhang fights) that simply couldn't get their shot

Haviton · Nov 11, 2023

Wallin wasnt top 10 when Fury fought him

KernowWarrior · Nov 11, 2023

Boxing is first and foremost a business, it always has been, so the champions will only fight if the financial rewards suit them.

Despite being a life long fan of boxing, with advancing age come disillusionment with the sport, and certainly Tyson Fury is the epitome of why I feel this way, he talks loudly of undisputed blah blah but puts a million and one barriers to prevent it happening, even against a gap toothed middleweight sausage.

So this undisputed title malarky at heavyweight is something I will watch if the match ever gets made, but otherwise frankly it has lost its gloss, a upcoming undisputed heavyweight title bout should be a big event in a boxing fans diary, but sadly not for this fan.

There again I like many could be viewing the heavyweight championship bouts of the 'past' with rose coloured spectacles, if so I will keep on wearing them.

Finkel · Nov 13, 2023

As we have been given a date in February now, maybe people have some more thoughts

Finkel · Jan 19, 2024

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So, in the last week or so I've noticed the Saudis are attaching an "Undisputed Heavyweight Title" belt to winner of Fury v Usyk. I am wondering how people feel about this, and their plans for who the winner should face. When "Day of Reckoning" was announced I thought my wish was coming true that we were getting an unofficial tournament. However, that doesn't seem to be the case at all.

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Let's look at the five top contenders based on ranking body shenanigans and order of belts:

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the next in line after his controversial victory over Zhang in August 2022 seems to have been sidelined by the Saudis. Was this ignorance on his part, has he been played? Perhaps he will get to fight for a splintered IBF title, but will he ever get a shot at the "Undisputed" champion. Fans won't be pushing for it...

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the second in line after his controversial loss to Hrgovic in August 2022, became WBO mandatory after defeating highly rated Joe Joyce in April 2023. He underlined the point in the September 2023 rematch and will next face Joseph Parker in March 2024. Parker who just defeated Deontay Wilder (in what was supposed to be a winner stays on tournament, but he isn't fighting Joshua...).

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has been waiting on his final eliminator for the WBC title since beating Luis Ortiz in September 2022. He allegedly priced himself out of a fight with WBC champion Tyson Fury and Deontay Wilder. Though, the first sounded like a cover story to allow Fury v Ngannou, and I don't think it is actually possible to price yourself out of a final eliminator... Ruiz Jr. was even on the Day of Reckoning broadcast trying to get his foot in the door with the money men. Right now, he's in the who needs you club and he has been done dirty by the WBC as they chased the Saudi money themselves.

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(former WBC#8) now WBC#3 after beating former WBC#1 by arguably a 12-0 UD victory at Day of Reckoning. Hmmmm... he dismantles the long time WBC#1 and he only gets installed at #3 after a 2023 that had him in fighter of the year conversations...I guess he doesn't have a big enough profile. No matter, the winner of Joshua v Wallin was to fight the winner of Wilder v Parker...oh wait...

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(former WBC#2) now WBC#1 after beating WBC#9 Otto Wallin. A great win, after two rebuilding fights in 2023 against Jermaine Franklin (coming off a loss to Dillian Whyte) and Robert Helenius (who in fairness was a last minute replacement). His next opponent won't be Joseph Parker, Philip Hrgovic, Andy Ruiz, or Zhilei Zhang, instead he is in a gimmick fight with 0-1 Francis Ngannou.

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Philip Hrgovic a man who will have been waiting two years for his chance when we reach summer 2024? The winner of Zhilei Zhang v Joseph Parker a fight between easily the top 2 heavies of 2023? Consider this, if Zhang beats Parker in March he will have a controversial loss to Hrgovic, two wins over Joyce, and a win over resurgent Parker. At which point,
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No, TURKI ALALSHIKH WANTS the winner of a gimmick fight between Anthony Joshua, on the comeback trail, and 0-1 Francis Ngannou? Why? Because it brings the most eyeballs to Saudi Arabia makes the most money.

This would mean Anthony Joshua could be potentially fighting Usyk for a third time before Hrgovic or Zhang ever get a title shot. To me, that is depressing.

Personally, I feel as boxing fans we should be careful what we wish for. BUT maybe I am a lone voice here.
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Mickc · Jan 20, 2024

Undisputed for me is just simply the best fighter of his division having attained every Title/Belt that is possible to be had. Lineal and Undisputed are terms that have been around for a lot of years and there has never needed to be a belt for either as it is a Title bestowed on a fighter. Is this Undisputed belt just for this fight between Fury and Usyk or will there also be one for the winner of Beterbiev v Bivol ? There are too many belts in Boxing already so Lineal and Undisputed should remain as such as Titles and no need of anymore belts .

lufcrazy · Jan 20, 2024

A champion is the man who beat the man.

Undisputed means you've taken on all other claimants and won.

Here we have an interesting case of the man facing the man who announced retirement whilst being the man. Okay all belts are on the line.

Great stuff

DaRealJT · Jan 20, 2024

Finkel said: ↑

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Philip Hrgovic a man who will have been waiting two years for his chance when we reach summer 2024? The winner of Zhilei Zhang v Joseph Parker a fight between easily the top 2 heavies of 2023? Consider this, if Zhang beats Parker in March he will have a controversial loss to Hrgovic, two wins over Joyce, and a win over resurgent Parker. At which point,
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No, TURKI ALALSHIKH WANTS the winner of a gimmick fight between Anthony Joshua, on the comeback trail, and 0-1 Francis Ngannou? Why? Because it brings the most eyeballs to Saudi Arabia makes the most money.

This would mean Anthony Joshua could be potentially fighting Usyk for a third time before Hrgovic or Zhang ever get a title shot. To me, that is depressing.
Click to expand...

Good points raised.

Imo the winner of Fury-Usyk should be defending against the winner of Zhang-Parker (who would be the WBO interim champ and mandatory). That would not only be fair, that would be an interesting fight that boxing fans would love to see.

But no, thanks to Turki we could potentially be getting Fury-Ngannou 2 or Usyk-Joshua 3, rematches that no one is asking for. Usyk-Ngannou would not be very interesting either. The only interesting matchup would be Fury-Joshua, but it would be criminal for such a massive all-British matchup to be taking place outside of the UK and in Saudi instead.

But ultimately, money talks.

007 373 5963 · Jan 20, 2024

@Finkel I like your writeups, and you give a good breakdown.

I personally think the title of "undisputed" SHOULD be reserved for whoever arguably cleans out the division, not just whoever has all 4 belts. It should be reserved for the person who can arguably defeat anyone else in the division. For example, maybe if you have wins over the top 5 ranked boxers in your division (and you have all the belts?), then you could be called "undisputed". Unfortunately, with every alphabet body + the ring magazine having their own ranking, this would be hard to enforce.

If Fury wins convincingly, then, in my eyes at least, I think he should at least have to take on AJ before he could rightfully be called "undisputed". AJ has bounced back respectably and is a very dangerous top 5 opponent who can certainly regain some or all of the belts in the next 2 or 3 years.

If Usyk wins convincingly, I would have said he should still have to take on wilder before i'd call him a true undisputed champion, BUT wilder appears to be done at this point.

If it's a close fight that goes to the scorecards, then i'd say a rematch will be needed, and i'm expecting we'll get one regardless.

ForemanJab · Jan 20, 2024

It feels a little cheapened by how much the IBF has delayed their mandatory to make this fight possible (2 years and 4 months!). Also Fury and Usyk are older fighters who certainly aren't at the top of their games anymore so the winner of this fight being crowned the "best" in the division appears to be a bit specious at this point.

Sks476 · Jan 20, 2024

Fury is number 1 for me but Fury Vs Usyk will give us a definitive answer. No one else has a claim to be number 1.

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