What is a resume of a fighter you can never make your mind up on?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Tockah, Nov 20, 2023.

  1. Greg Price99

    Greg Price99 Well-Known Member Full Member

    Dec 17, 2018
    Again, all fair points TR.

    I agree Moore got more consistent later on in his career. Rummy's sticky top 25 fighters by each decade thread opened my eyes to this. I ranked Moore as the greatest p4p boxer of the 1950's, based solely on fights contested in that decade.

    Moore went 67-3-2 in the 50's, including 9-0 in LHW title fights.

    His only defeats were to Marciano, Patterson & Harold Johnson, who he also beat 3 times during the decade.

    His win resume in the 50's was very good & in addition to Johnson included Maxim x 3, the 13lbs & 29.5lbs heavier Nino Valdes, 19lbs heavier Bob Baker, Oakland Billy Smith, 9lbs lighter Bert Lytell, Bobo Olsen & past prime Jimmy Bivins.

    The reason I struggle ranking him is, during the 1940's his opposition was superior to the 50's & he lost 14 times, at an age, and with an experience level, that means I just can't consider him pre-prime.

    Was he so much more inconsistent in the 40's than the 50's because his opposition was better? Or was it because he got better? I don't completely discount the latter, but it's difficult to believe that, for e.g. when he lost 3 out of 6 fights in 1948 to Leonard Morrow, Henry Hall and Lloyd Gibson, having had 113 fights going into those 6 at the age of 34, that he was green, pre-prime or even that he got better.

    When I had my first shot at an all time top 50 p4p, Moore came in at about #29. For Rummy's top 25 boxers by decade threads I had him #10 in the 40's & #1 in the 50's, much better than several fighters I'd ranked above him on my p4p top 50 list, where I subsequently bumped him up to #22, but even then I feel he's probably too low. For most of the fighters in my top 30, they have a range of just a few spots where I could see them ranked, with Moore I can entertain arguments for top 10 and outside top 25.

    Like I say, I just find it really hard to position him. Honestly, assessing his career does my head in. I think his career exposes the flaws in my ranking criteria, or at least how I apply it.

    For me personally speaking, I'm comfortable that he's a good answer to question posed in the title of this thread.
  2. Greg Price99

    Greg Price99 Well-Known Member Full Member

    Dec 17, 2018
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  3. Greg Price99

    Greg Price99 Well-Known Member Full Member

    Dec 17, 2018
    Not true.

    Firstly, neither Rocky Kansas nor Lew Tendler ever beat Benny. Johnny Kilbane (a top 10 ATG FW) did......when Leonard was 18 years old.

    Secondly, McGrain, whose level of research conducted to support his rankings puts my own to shame, has Jack Britton #38 all time p4p & #3 all time at WW. Leonard went 2-1 vs Britton, the loss being a DQ in a fight for Britton's WW title for hitting Jack whilst he was on the floor after Britton had KD'd him. Going 2-1, under those circumstances, vs a fighter with a credible argument as the 3rd greatest WW of all time, isn't bad for a LW.

    Leonard also won a series vs Freddie Welsh, who most rank as a top 10 all time LW.

    After losing to Johnny Dundee (who Leonard went 5-2-2 against in total) at the age of only 20, Leonard went 81-0 in his remaining LW fights (allowing a few lbs over for non-title fights). He won 8 fights (Welsh x 2, Tendler x 2 & Kansas x 4) against boxers that appear in McGrain's excellent top 50 LWs of all time list. As a comparison, Roberto Duran went 36-1 in his career LW fights and won 3 fights (DeJesus x 2 & Buchanan) against fighters making that list.
  4. Mike Cannon

    Mike Cannon Boxing Addict Full Member

    Apr 29, 2020
    Hi Buddy.
    Of all the names of all the fighters, I didn't think a boxer of his standing would come remotely to mind, as @Greg Price99 pointed out there were a few inaccuracies in your post, no probs, we have all been there, but with greg's correction and follow up information, do you still stand by the your line ? fine if you do, that's your prerogative, as it must be.
    hope you take this as its meant, polite back and forth.
    stay safe Vic, chat soon matey.
    Noel857 and Greg Price99 like this.
  5. northpaw

    northpaw Boxing Junkie Full Member

    Jun 5, 2010
    Everybody pre -30's

    I know about "the myths" and "the legends" but TBQFH I just don't know what to make of those resumes............
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  6. Vic-JofreBRASIL

    Vic-JofreBRASIL Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    Aug 19, 2010
    I stand corrected, Greg. I posted without any research and thought that Rocky Kansas had a win over Leonard...
    I guess we should discuss more guys like Freddie Welsh, Jack Britton and Lew Tendler, I don't remember the last thread I saw on those around here...
  7. Greg Price99

    Greg Price99 Well-Known Member Full Member

    Dec 17, 2018
    No worries mate.

    Jack Britton & Ted Kid Lewis's series for the WW title alone, could make for a very interesting book.
    swagdelfadeel likes this.
  8. Dynamicpuncher

    Dynamicpuncher Boxing Junkie Full Member

    Jan 14, 2022
    Achievement wise I would say he has a case. But regarding his resume ? I think he falls a tad short.
    mr. magoo likes this.
  9. Reinhardt

    Reinhardt Boxing Junkie Full Member

    Oct 4, 2016

    Right, when you fight as in Moore's case over 200 fights you're going to have some off nights. Old timers often fought twice a month, can you even imagine that today?
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  10. Pugguy

    Pugguy Boxing Junkie Full Member

    Aug 22, 2021
    I’m finding it difficult to make up my mind on Francis Ngannou’s one fight resume. It’s loaded but then again it’s not. :D