What is an ATG + Zhang discussion

Chin Diesel · Sep 29, 2023

BubblesUK said: ↑

That's not my recollection of that fight.. Wlad was definitely gunshy, possibly even disinterested... and Fury still stunk the place out to win.

I don't consider it a schooling - a boxer who can school another doesn't run a mile from the rematch.
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If you can barely lay a glove on your opponent over 12 rounds and lose a lopsided decision as the champion in your backyard, you got schooled. Wlad was the master of stinking the joint out and winning wide in the process. Fury beat him without the 12 round hugfest too lol.

Chin Diesel · Sep 29, 2023

Dynamicpuncher said: ↑

Ali beat a prime Foreman who become a Lineal champion in the 90s.

End thread.
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It's barely relevant to the subject but ok.

Dynamicpuncher · Sep 29, 2023

Chin Diesel said: ↑

It's barely relevant to the subject but ok.
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Of course it is Foreman competed in 2 different eras 70s/90s, and as an old man won a Lineal title in 90s. Ali beat Foreman at his best in the 70s.

You said Ali didn't have a win after 1978 and theres no evidence he would compete in different eras.

Well considering Foreman did and Ali beat Foreman at his best. I would expect a prime Ali to be able to compete very well in the modern eras. Considering smaller fighters like Byrd, Holyfield, did. And even Usyk now who's similar size to Ali.

Loudon · Sep 29, 2023

Dynamicpuncher said: ↑

Of course it is Foreman competed in 2 different eras 70s/90s and as an old manwon a Lineal title in 90s. Ali beat Foreman at his best in the 70s.

You said Ali didn't have a win after 1978 and theres no evidence he would compete in different eras.

Well considering Foreman did and Ali beat Foreman at his best. I would expect a prime Ali to be able to compete very well in the modern eras. Considering smaller fighters like Byrd, Holyfield, and even Usyk now who's similar size to Ali.
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Is this someone’s alt?

Chin Diesel · Sep 29, 2023

Dynamicpuncher said: ↑

Of course it is Foreman competed in 2 different eras 70s/90s and as an old manwon a Lineal title in 90s. Ali beat Foreman at his best in the 70s.

You said Ali didn't have a win after 1978 and theres no evidence he would compete in different eras.

Well considering Foreman did and Ali beat Foreman at his best. I would expect a prime Ali to be able to compete very well in the modern eras. Considering smaller fighters like Byrd, Holyfield, and even Usyk now who's similar size to Ali.
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Being an ATG has nothing to do with H2H ability compared to fighters 50, 100 or 200 years in the future.

It's triangulation based on one fight and Ali's not Foreman, whose attributes aged remarkably well. Young also beat Foreman "at his best in the 70's", assuming that Foreman was at his best in the 70's. In several respects he was better in the 90's.

I said that Ali might well lose to most top champions who came after him as they had huge advantages.

Byrd and Usyk are southpaws and Ali wasn't Holyfield, perhaps Holyfield was better than Ali. And even he lost the majority of the fights with Bowe and Lewis.

Dynamicpuncher · Sep 29, 2023

Chin Diesel said: ↑

Being an ATG has nothing to do with H2H ability compared to fighters 50, 100 or 200 years in the future.

It's triangulation based on one fight and Ali's not Foreman, whose attributes aged remarkably well. Young also beat Foreman "at his best in the 70's", assuming that Foreman was at his best in the 70's. In several respects he was better in the 90's.

I said that Ali might well lose to most top champions who came after him as they had huge advantages.

Byrd and Usyk are southpaws and Ali wasn't Holyfield, perhaps Holyfield was better than Ali. And even he lost the majority of the fights with Bowe and Lewis.
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Being an ATG has nothing to do with H2H ability compared to fighters 50, 100 or 200 years in the future.
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Ali was beating fighters of 6'3 220 pounds you're making him sound ancient, he was a reasonably sized Heavyweight and wouldn't be out of place in most eras. As for H2H ability i think that's part of being ATG aswell as achievements, and Ali by most fans is rated pretty highly H2H.

It's triangulation based on one fight and Ali's not Foreman, whose attributes aged remarkably well. Young also beat Foreman "at his best in the 70's", assuming that Foreman was at his best in the 70's. In several respects he was better in the 90's.
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Foreman was 45 years old when he won the Heavyweight title, you can't tell me he wouldn't of done better at his peak. What it shows is that someone from Ali's era competed well in other eras. If you want another example Larry Holmes was in his 40s and came close to beating a prime Holyfield and schooled Ray Mercer. Again Holmes was of similar height, reach, size, of Muhammad Ali.

I see no reason why a prime Muhammad Ali with his attributes in speed, talent, heart, durability, couldn't compete in modern era.

I said that Ali might well lose to most top champions who came after him as they had huge advantages.
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Well that's an assumption based on no evidence which champions are those ? i'm not saying he beats them all but to assume he loses to "most of them" is a bit presumptuous.

Byrd and Usyk are southpaws and Ali wasn't Holyfield, perhaps Holyfield was better than Ali. And even he lost the majority of the fights with Bowe and Lewis.
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So what if they're Southpaws ? they still get by on their talent do they not ? neither are big punchers and have to rely on their talent and skills so why can't Ali do the same i'm confused ?

And perhaps Ali is better than Holyfield ? i can easily say that.

Dynamicpuncher · Sep 29, 2023

Here's a list of every Heavyweight champion after Muhammad Ali.

Larry Holmes = could go either way but i slightly favour Ali.
Mike Weaver = Ali would win
John Tate = Ali would win
Michael Dokes = Ali would win
Gerrie Coetzee = Ali would win
Greg Page = Ali would win
Tim Witherspoon = Ali would win
Pinklon Thomas = Ali would win
Greg Page = Ali would win
Tony Tubbs = Ali would win
Michael Spinks = Ali would win
Trevor Berbick = Ali would win
Mike Tyson = could go either way i can see an argument for both fighters.
Bonecrusher Smith = Ali would win
Francesco Damani = Ali would win
Buster Douglas = Ali would beat the version of Douglas who fought Holyfield
Evander Holyfield = Tough fight that i see Ali edging
Riddick Bowe = Bowe struggled vs fighters who fought him on the outside aka Tony Tubbs, i think Ali could win a decision but tough fight.
Ray Mercer = Ali would win
Michael Moorer = Ali would win
Lennox Lewis = Pre Steward loses but i think a prime Lewis would beat Ali.
Herbie Hide = Ali would win
Tommy Morrison = Ali would win
Oliver McCall = Ali would win
Bruce Seldon = Ali would win
Frank Bruno = Ali would win
Old Foreman = Ali would win
Henry Akinwande = Ali would win
Shannon Briggs = Ali would win
Vitali Klitschko = Ali could lose this very tough match up for him.
Chris Byrd = Ali would win
John Ruiz = Ali would win
Hasim Rahman = Ali would win
Roy Jones Jr = Ali would win
Lamon Brewster = Ali would win
Nikolai Valuev = Ali would win
Siarhei Liakhovic = Ali would win
Wladimir Klitschko = Again another losable match up for Ali very tough fight.
Ruslan Chagaev = Ali would win
Sultan Ibragimov = Ali would win
Samuel Peter = Ali would win
David Haye = Ali would win
Alexander Povetkin = Ali would win
Deontay Wilder = Ali would win
Charles Martin = Ali would win
Andy Ruiz Jr = Ali would win
Anthony Joshua = Ali would win
Tyson Fury = Haven't seen enough of Fury vs smaller skillful fighters, but this would be a very tough match up for Ali could lose this.
Manuel Charr = Ali would win
Joseph Parker = Ali would win
Oleksandr Usyk = Another very tough match up but i haven't seen enough of Usyk at Heavyweight to make a real opinion.

So i fail to see how Ali would lose to "most of these champions"

fistsof steel · Sep 29, 2023

Ali was a Legend......Muhammad Ali was one of the greatest boxers in history, the first fighter to win the world heavyweight championship on three separate occasions.....This is incredible performance Won the third Heavyweight title at 33 way past his best really and defeated the Monster and Prime Geoerge Foreman to take a record 3rd Heavyweight title.....This is Greatness will probably never be done again.!!!

Babality · Sep 29, 2023

I sometimes have similar beliefs, but then I remember a fat foreman with a 10 year layoff compete and never get knocked out by modern HWs.

fistsof steel · Sep 29, 2023

Babality said: ↑

I sometimes have similar beliefs, but then I remember a fat foreman with a 10 year layoff compete and never get knocked out by modern HWs.
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And won a World Title.....And was 45 Years old also...

MrPook · Sep 29, 2023

1. Achievement/resume
2. H2H ability
3. Buzz/star power
4. Longevity

Number 3 is a personal one of mine. Mike Tyson for example scores high on that criteria.

Braindamage · Sep 29, 2023

Chin Diesel said: ↑

You become an ATG by accomplishing significant things in your time. Ali for instance is considered an ATG partly or largely because he was a very successful boxer in the 60's and 70's.

But Ali never beat anyone after 1978. No one really knows how he would perform in subsequent eras. For all we know he may have lost to most of the top champions who came after him. The landscape doesn't remain static over time and all subsequent fighters could study him whereas he couldn't study them.

So being an ATG doesn't mean that you would be in the mix 50, 100 or 200 years later. This doesn't diminish Ali etc. in his own time as that's the only time he could operate in unless he had a time machine.

In this regard many are saying that Zhang is overrated after his last few fights. And he may well be relative to the other fighters around right now. But I don't know of any 6'6, 20 stone southpaws with an Olympic silver, 24-25 years of experience and massive two-handed power from the past. Maybe a historian can provide a list of similar fighters from 30-60 years ago if I'm wrong. So it's not inconceivable at all that Zhang would have the ability to walk through a lot of ATG's, who accomplished much in their time but never experienced a fighter remotely like Zhang. We know that many of them never fought a pro southpaw, with some losing to cruiserweight-sized southpaws multiple times in the amateurs. And we know that southpaws are extremely dangerous even to modern heavyweights with a lot of experience against them.

It's also obvious that many fighters would underestimate Zhang. Hrgovic likely did based on the Forrest fight where something was badly wrong and he only got an 8-4 decision over Zhang due to boxing politics. Zhang would have the further benefit of being Chinese, so there is the prejudiced assumption held by many (and likely even more prevalent in the past) that he cannot possibly fight very well. Despite Chinese population size and boxing being banned in China until relatively recently.

So Zhang has a historically unique collection of attributes and would be massively underestimated for several reasons. It's quite clear that many would get a rude awakening like Hrgovic and Joyce.
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Your logic only applies to heavy weights. And you are right. Not many giant south paws with skills like Zhang in the heavies. All the other weights have limits, so were not going to see middleweights weighing 40 pounds more and 6-8 inches taller today than 50 years ago.

kirk · Sep 29, 2023

This reminds me of 9 months ago when people were telling me Joyce was an ATG because a fighter like him had never been seen before.

Rating people like Joyce and Zhang before they've proven themselves is a waste of words. Would Zhang be formidable to most ATGs? I think so. Trying to draw the line as to who he could beat or who he couldn't, when he hasn't fought a single tier 1 fighter, is pointless, imo.

That being said, let's hope he gets the fights in this era to really help determine just how good he really is... which would lend more credibility to these fantasy fight claims.

Serge · Sep 29, 2023

People fear a strong Communist brother, especially a 6'6'' 287lbs one who can punch holes in castle walls, like they fear a strong Soviet brother and a strong Brit brother. They fear change to the old world order. It is what it is.

Chinese power is real and I am very feel

Chat poop, get Zhang'd

Chin Diesel · Sep 30, 2023

Dynamicpuncher said: ↑

Ali was beating fighters of 6'3 220 pounds you're making him sound ancient, he was a reasonably sized Heavyweight and wouldn't be out of place in most eras. As for H2H ability i think that's part of being ATG aswell as achievements, and Ali by most fans is rated pretty highly H2H.

Foreman was 45 years old when he won the Heavyweight title, you can't tell me he wouldn't of done better at his peak. What it shows is that someone from Ali's era competed well in other eras. If you want another example Larry Holmes was in his 40s and came close to beating a prime Holyfield and schooled Ray Mercer. Again Holmes was of similar height, reach, size, of Muhammad Ali.

I see no reason why a prime Muhammad Ali with his attributes in speed, talent, heart, durability, couldn't compete in modern era.

Well that's an assumption based on no evidence which champions are those ? i'm not saying he beats them all but to assume he loses to "most of them" is a bit presumptuous.

So what if they're Southpaws ? they still get by on their talent do they not ? neither are big punchers and have to rely on their talent and skills so why can't Ali do the same i'm confused ?

And perhaps Ali is better than Holyfield ? i can easily say that.
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Foreman and Holmes were different people to Ali. Foreman was a big puncher, 250 lbs in the 90's, who came from behind to KO an ex-LHW southpaw, who may well have beaten Ali (though Moorer wasn't top 4 in the 90's). Holmes schooled and stopped Ali. Mike Tyson and whoever else from subsequent generations also may well have beaten Ali, who would have been at an informational, scientific and stylistic disadvantage against Tyson.

"As for H2H ability i think that's part of being ATG aswell as achievements"

It's absolutely not when talking about between generations without running into a self-defeating paradox. This is the key point:

Whether Joe Louis or Marciano could beat a 6’6, 20 stone, skilled southpaw power punching contender from 70-85 years in the future or whether they’d get KO’d early is irrelevant in assessing their greatness. By your logic, they are increasingly less great over time if they couldn't beat Zhang or whoever comes along in the future. Obviously they never experienced anyone remotely like Zhang and they couldn't because those eras were far more limited in terms of global scale, science, size, stance etc. They could only be great within their context.

Would Louis and Marciano be less great in your view if Zhang would KO men with their exact attributes early?

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