What is ur HW top 10?

That's it really.

 

No doubt. Doesn't mean we can't disagree with him though.

 

Does tape of Liston/Folley exist?

 

If we were to only rate fighters based on what they accomplished in there era, Liston would rate near the top in history. He cleaned out most of the best contenders in the division, twice destroyed the champion, hardly struggled with his best competition, ducked no one.

 

He was also badly beaten twice. And there are couple with more wins over ranked opposition: Holmes, Lewis, Tyson, Holyfield and arguably Johnson. Marciano's record is very similar to Liston's, but without the losses. Frazier's as well, but with his best scalp being Ali's instead of Patterson's. This is of course not the whole story, but gives perspective.

All these guys could arguably rank above Liston according to this criteria (which I personnaly use), but not all do IMO.

 

But empirical experience shows that this is even true for contemprorary fighters facing each other (see my previous post on the subject). Could be quantum related, but I'll settle for just too many factors.

 

I never said it was easy to make predictions! I just said it wasn't much harder than analysing ability.

If you can't predict Mares/Perez or Cotto/Foreman correctly, it's because you don't understand the fighters as well as you thought you did, or because the film doesn't reflect their abilities.

 

Hes actually 8th best P4P, officially. Suppose he could trade for 7th with StoneHands, due to Stoney's inactivity recently. But no higher.

 

To the bold... so who cares? You obviously tried making a point. Re-post or link us to that thread I haven't made anything up. You tried using this historical uniqueness as a way to enhance Liston. If not, then HOW the hell do you rate him over Foreman? Unless like itrymarita said and you over-estimate H2H rather than achievements/resume.

As some laugh at old kooks ranking Dempsey so high, they would be laughing very hard at the revisionist boosting of Liston.

 

Thank you. He's an awesome poster, but I do feel he's a tad inconsistent. Like there's some wiggle room with his favorites. We all have our imperfections.

Exactly. What's the point of the statement? Dominating wins in history? So what... Foreman's performance and win **** on Liston's. Period... so you're going to open to scrutiny by saying it and trying to use it as some device to prop Liston.

 

Could be a significant debate, this one. Out of interest, here is the top 10 P4P list us ESB members came up with a couple weeks back in a rating Pryor thread...

ESB Classic Top 10 posters P4P:

1) burt bienstock
2) Mag125
3) Pachilles
4) janitor
5) PeteThePrince
6) PowerPuncher
7) Stonehands
8) McGrain
9) ripcity
10) anarci

We have the 5th seed vs 8th seed. As Itry is playing a vital role in this debate, he must be considered a comparison to Pete having a judge on the payroll. However this is McGrain's backyard and Suzie and Bokaj are the hometown judges. Which essentially means Pete must pull off a KO and fast, or else he's almost certainly likely to lose a Dec, in this already closely contested debate.

What does this do for their standings? Against a far more experienced, equally great poster in his own backyard, can Pete crack the top 4 if he pulls it off against the odds? What does it do for the certainly established great, McGrain, if he can put a halt to this fearless and game young buck, who has dominated the competition in recent times to earn himself a top 5 spot?

 

A couple of points on the few preceding pages:

* If H2H is basically BS, then undefeated Rocky Marciano is the greatest heavyweight of all time. We use and need relativity in all our human activities, even when simply looking at a full moon hanging on the horizon.

It is the most natural thing in the world to watch Tyson demolishing Pinklon Thomas and wonder how he would fare against the legendary Manassa Mauler or the hallowed Brown Bomber. Impossible? Not at all.

I believe a fan can analyze two fighter's records, styles, eras and relative abilities and, with enough pondering, reach an accurate conclusion as to which is the better competitor. If bias muddles clarity, the opinions of other dedicated individuals should bear that out. This is what we endeavor to do here every day.

Sometimes the process is not done with the greatest quality control -because this is a hobby, after all- but, push comes to shove, the truth is within our grasp. If Lennox Lewis vs. Alfredo Evangelista is patently predictable, then so should Ali vs. Louis, given enough homework.

* Liston should not automatically be elevated over Foreman. Subpar Joe Frazier and a prime Ken Norton are more formidable heavyweights than Floyd Patterson. As for good technicians, Ken Norton was technically proficient enough to go 54 rounds with Ali and Holmes, giving hell without falling once, yet Foreman walked right through him within 5 minutes. And Goyo Peralta was as seasoned as they come, yet young George outpointed him.

After the Zaire layoff, Foreman was clearly not at the same level as when champion, so the shaky Lyle and Young bouts should be seen within this context.

Foreman defended his crown rising to a ten count. Liston quit after 6 on his stool.