What is your assessment of Jack Dempsey?

JohnThomas1 · Feb 22, 2022

JWSoats said: ↑

Regarding Jack Dempsey, I believe famed iconic trainer Ray Arcel said it best, "He was great. But he could have been greater if after winning the championship he had concentrated more on being a fighter than being an actor." In his march to the title shot with Jess Willard, and after meeting up with Jack Kearns, Dempsey developed into a fierce, fearsome fighting machine. But after winning the title, Dempsey and his manager borrowed a page from quite a few of his predecessors by taking to the stage, circus, etc. to capitalize on the title and make some fast and easy money. Regarding title defenses, Kearns in his autobiography, "The Million Dollar Gate" stated that he set out to make Dempsey's title defenses spectacular events. He was quite successful in this in his mastery of the art of hype and ballyhoo. Kearns made friends with members of the press and others who were wealthy and connected and often manipulated them to each other's mutual advantage. He thus made the Carpentier bout into a 'battle of the century' (which it in reality was anything but) and the first million dollar gate. Kearns also admitted to having Dempsey go out and slug with Firpo rather than box him to an easy victory, and how it almost backfired on him when he saw his fighter go flying out of the ring in that wild first round. Dempsey held the title seven years, but despite the million dollar gates there were long periods of inactivity in the ring. Perennial top contender Harry Wills never received a title shot. A couple attempts were made, most notably by Floyd Fitzsimmons, but it never came to fruition. It is a match that should have taken place. A match with Harry Greb would have been another prospective match, even though the latter was a middleweight. That would have probably been a no-win situation for Dempsey because of the size disparity, but Greb had defeated several of the fighters Dempsey had defended the title against as well as other heavyweights so a good case could be made for him deserving a chance at the title. I believe that Dempsey would have been victorious over both Wills and Greb which would have enhanced his legacy considerably.

Fitting in very well with the prosperity, glamour, and glitz of the exciting Roaring '20s, Dempsey and Kearns, along with promoter Tex Rickard, took boxing to unprecedented heights. Sold out main events were held in major league ballparks whereas just a few decades earlier boxing was banned in many areas with bouts in secret on barges or border towns. The rich and famous, politicians, and mobsters now appeared regularly and routinely at ringside. I can understand how the call of Hollywood glamour would appeal to someone who a few years earlier had been a hobo, taking fights and whatever odd jobs he could find just to survive. Like many others who would follow him, Dempsey liked the good life, riches, and fame. And it adversely affected his ring career. And like many others before and after him, after winning the title he effectively became a part-time fighter and perhaps more than part-time performer. To his credit, after retiring he stayed in the public eye, appearing at various events, and running his Broadway restaurant. He was readily accessible to his fans. I corresponded with him by mail during his latter years. To sum it up, he was a great fighter with a lot of charisma and natural ability that with hard work took him to the title. His title reign was not so great. Ray Arcel nailed it. In later life, he was a fixture at major boxing events, an elder statesman of the sport, and was always accessible and gracious to his fans. When he passed in 1983, I went to his viewing. I stood in line waiting to get into the funeral home and around me were some people who had worked for him in his restaurant. They spoke freely of what a pleasure it had been working for him.
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That is a bloody good post.

JohnThomas1 · Feb 22, 2022

McGrain said: ↑

No, I can't do something. Given how hard I've pushed and am pushing to have racist behaviour purged on the forum it would be impossible for me to go in to bat for Unforgiven, however much I might like to.
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I understand your overall point.

McGrain said: ↑

Unforgiven's post was not actioned before it was seen. Nobody can action anything they don't know about. The idea that use of that kind of language would be ignored on the forum because it is old is not sensible. It was rightly reported by a poster post-bump and picked up by a moderator. That's the chance you take when you use that word, and that's a policy I stand by 100%.
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I'm not trying to pin or undermine you personally here (and i am completely sure you know that) but in your Racism in the Lounge thread one of your points was this -

11 - Clean slate. From August 15th all previous offences in racism are purged so far as I am concerned.

I think that point was extremely fair and sensible but perhaps other moderators didn't as Unforgiven's post was a long, long time before that date.

Also lets say i can't stand a poster and i know he has made plenty of racial posts in the past. I could go and bump or have someone else bump one thread and then report the post. As soon as he comes back from that ban i/we could do it again, and again. I know i am stretching it a bit but the point is there.

Personally i wouldn't report such an old post but i can understand why someone might as they could have the actual remark removed from the forum which is probably the best use of the report feature in such instances.

McGrain said: ↑

However, Unforgiven was not perma-banned for the use of this word. That is not true. He was given a timed ban for it, immediately logged into a second account and continued to post. The moderator who banned him ran an IP check a while later, found him posting away as though nothing had happened and perma-banned him for using alts to circumnavigate a ban for using racist language.

This is harsh, but not necessarily inconsistent.
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I fully understand. I wish it worked as fast for the plethora of obvious instant alts in Classic. I'm guessing some are good at muddying IP's.

McGrain said: ↑

Finally i'd point out that Unforgiven has decided for himself never to post here again. That's not something anyone can do anything about, although a lengthy period away from the forum is now inevitable.
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I think he'll be back at some point as I've seen him leave here multiple times now but just like so many of our favorite pugs back he comes. I certainly hope so anyway.

Again nothing in here is personal i think it's great you took one for the team and made a public stance on racism and racist posts. Happy to stand with you.

McGrain · Feb 23, 2022

JohnThomas1 said: ↑

I understand your overall point.

I'm not trying to pin or undermine you personally here (and i am completely sure you know that) but in your Racism in the Lounge thread one of your points was this -

11 - Clean slate. From August 15th all previous offences in racism are purged so far as I am concerned.

I think that point was extremely fair and sensible but perhaps other moderators didn't as Unforgiven's post was a long, long time before that date.
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"As far as I am concerned."

I did not ban Unforgiven.

Also lets say i can't stand a poster and i know he has made plenty of racial posts in the past. I could go and bump or have someone else bump one thread and then report the post. As soon as he comes back from that ban i/we could do it again, and again. I know i am stretching it a bit but the point is there.
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This is completely untrue.

Racism on the forum was a bannable offence in 2018 and 2008. In this case no moderator saw the racist post.

In the bizarre situation you are describing, you don't even need to bump the thread. Just report an unseen, undeleted post. Yes, the poster in question will probably recieve a ban when this post is picked up by a moderator in the reporting forum.

And then a permanent ban on the second or third occasion of their being reported for using racist language.

As is absolutely right and fair.

If you don't want to be banned for racist language, don't use racist language. Works for me.

I think he'll be back at some point as I've seen him leave here multiple times now but just like so many of our favorite pugs back he comes. I certainly hope so anyway.
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It is extremely difficult for him to come back now given that he used the same racist epitaph posting as "conn" as he did posting as "Unforgiven".

Even if you and think his being temporarily banned for racist language in 2018 is wrong - and i completely disagree - any argument that using racist language in 2022 is perfectly fine is outright rejected by me as apologist.

JohnThomas1 · Feb 23, 2022

McGrain said: ↑

"As far as I am concerned."

I did not ban Unforgiven.
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Yes hence my assuming sentence below that about other mods.

McGrain said: ↑

This is completely untrue.

Racism on the forum was a bannable offence in 2018 and 2008. In this case no moderator saw the racist post.

In the bizarre situation you are describing, you don't even need to bump the thread. Just report an unseen, undeleted post. Yes, the poster in question will probably receive a ban when this post is picked up by a moderator in the reporting forum.

And then a permanent ban on the second or third occasion of their being reported for using racist language.

As is absolutely right and fair.

If you don't want to be banned for racist language, don't use racist language. Works for me.
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Absolutely, it's always worked for me too.

McGrain said: ↑

It is extremely difficult for him to come back now given that he used the same racist epitaph posting as "conn" as he did posting as "Unforgiven".

Even if you think his being temporarily banned for racist language in 2018 is wrong - and i completely disagree - any argument that using racist language in 2022 is perfectly fine is outright rejected by me as apologist.
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Rest assured i am not condoning any such thing. It's not how i roll.

I do feel a little responsible for his last post as conn as i had inquired about what happened.

Anyway i appreciate the clarifications.

JWSoats · Feb 23, 2022

JohnThomas1 said: ↑

That is a bloody good post.
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Thank you, friend!

McGrain · Feb 23, 2022

JohnThomas1 said: ↑

Rest assured i am not condoning any such thing. It's not how i roll..
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Yes, I know that.

But that's the point: he said the same word he got a timed temporary ban for as Unforgiven, as conn. IN a post you quoted. So even if absolutely everything you say about the 2018 post is right, it doesn't matter.

mrkoolkevin · Feb 24, 2022

JohnThomas1 said: ↑

Thanks for the reply mate. That's bizarre and i think a little silly and most definitely unfair IMO given the time span. I saw a guy say it was a permaban in Antman's "Unforgiven" movie thread and was going to inquire but thought nah it couldn't be. It's not like you go around stirring rubbish non stop like a lot of trolls do in here over and over in username after username.

Maybe @McGrain can do something.
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The explanation for his ban makes sense to me, but for whatever it's worth, it seems pretty clear Unforgiven was just trying in a misguided way to be edgy and hip (he's a big fan of 90s gangsta rap), rather than racist. Either way, the language was obviously inappropriate though.

Hope he gets a chance to return soon.

JohnThomas1 · Feb 25, 2022

mrkoolkevin said: ↑

The explanation for his ban makes sense to me, but for whatever it's worth, it seems pretty clear Unforgiven was just trying in a misguided way to be edgy and hip (he's a big fan of 90s gangsta rap), rather than racist. Either way, the language was obviously inappropriate though.

Hope he gets a chance to return soon.
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Yeah Matt is always more than fair and i agree with your comments.

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