What made Ali the GOAT?

He either didn't train or he didn't try. Probably both.

 

What Duran opponents never trained? Who did Joe Frazier and Whitaker fight and beat...but only because the opposition didn't train? Spare me.

 

This at least as overstated as some of the excuses made for Duran. Liston was at least 32, but had no flab at all when he faced Clay. You don't look that if you're grossly out of shape.

 

I wo n' t dwell on his attributes,of which there are so many. We all know what they are. He conquered the fistic world,then had his title and livelihood taken from him. Was finally allowed to come back 3 1/2 years later,and conquered the world again overcoming a tougher bunch of boxers than the 60's lot. A lot is made of controversial decisions in his favour in his last few years,but hell,he got old,and he's hardly the only ageing fighter to benefit from a lucky nod from the judges,is he ? Concentrate on his resume from the years 1964-75. His only two losses in that period were against Joe Frazier,a fellow all time great,and Ken Norton,who was probably the best kept secret in heavyweight boxing at that point.

 

Without taking anything away from his acomplishments, it might have been a factor that he hit his stride when televisions became comonplace.

This brought his larger than life self to an audience that might not previously have followed boxing.

 

True. Ali was perfect for the TV age.

 

Look, all I'm saying is that Liston quit, his effort was seriously lacking. I'm guessing, if the fight was on the level, then he had a "reason" to quit, namely fatigue.
It seems reasonable, considering he'd been knocking men out in 1 round and Clay was only expected to last 2 or 3 at most, that Liston hadn't trained right.

That's no excuse for Liston. But his overall effort and the resistance he failed to put up diminish his supposed greatness.

On another thread you have no problem whatsoever in explaining that you think Spinks' win over Holmes suffers a bit from (what you perceive to be) a "lack of fire" in Holmes' performance. You downgrade the win because you feel Holmes didn't put forth his best and sharpest effort. Fair enough.

Well, I'm pointing out that Liston's effort against Clay was blatantly lacking. If ever there was a champion who didn't put out like he should, it was Liston. We can all see it, it's not even subtle.

 

Ali was simply something that Liston could n't comprehend. Psycho;ogically turned over by Muhammad.

 

Agreed.


Ali is no.1 for me; his best wins surpass any other Heavyweights, and the style/manner in which he beat them (most importantly his stoppage win over Foreman) see him no.1 and in an almost insurmountable position.

 

He could've been about 50 though.

 

I heard he was actually dead but nobody would tell him.

 

If so, that's only because Liston was arrogant and complacent as champion. He started to believe his own press cuttings, and thought Clay would be an easy fight. Therefore, he fell foul to the common mistake - he didn't prepare physically or mentally like a champion should. But even with that, he shouldn't have quit.
Even if he was outclassed and out-of-shape he should have made a better effort, and gone out fighting.

 

Liston put up a fair effort in my opinion even if it wasn't one of his best. He landed some big punches on Ali and the rounds were about even at the time of the stoppage. Ali simply took control in the 6th round and Liston's shoulder did seem to be injured. Sonny had to reach with his jab because his feet couldn't keep up with young Clay's. I rate it as a very impressive win for Ali and one of his peak performances.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoXZghrCuts[/ame]


[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDxvvruRstM[/ame]

 

I rate it as an impressive performance by the young Cassius Clay but not a massive ATG win.
It was a lame effort from Liston because he was actually still in the fight and he decided to quit. He did look suddenly tired in the 6th, or injured. So how can I say he put up much resistance ? Even if he was a "great" fighter, I cant see how he can be considered great in that fight. He punked out, OR he was injured. I'm sure he was gassed out due to lack of training too.

Some of Ali's fans want it both ways. They want to name "Sonny Liston" to represent a great fighter, but also tell us he was so mentally fragile he was crushed by Ali.
Liston's surrender was a monumentally weak "defence" of the world's heavyweight championship. Nevermind a "defence" of a fighter's reputation for greatness.

 

Yeah, and Elvis could still be alive. :nut