What made Ali the GOAT?

I rate the first fight as a very good win for Ali.

I don't believe Liston was in on a fix in the first fight; he's clearly trying, and if the substance in the eyes is true than surely he was trying to win.

He just sawy something in front of him that he couldn't figure out and took a way out, especially taking the shoulder injury into account.

Liston was very much 'live' for the fight. A fantastic win, especially considering the manner in which Ali went about it.

 

Muhammad Ali has the best cv, with wins against more top fighters and his ability was there for all to see, not only that but he had tremendous heart and chin.

For me his best years were cut short during his suspension and when he came back he had lost a bit of his speed so the fighter that beat Frazier x2 and Foreman wasnt even the best version of Ali.

As for the Liston fights I think the first one he won fair and square but the rematch was a bit of a farce, I dont really see how anyone can think Liston did anything other than throw that fight.

 

Wasn't it simply that he changed fundamentally, to the worse, during the six months after the second fight with Patterson, just like Duran did during the six months after Montreal?:smooch

 

(Well, Leonard-Duran is another story. I dont even rate Duran or Leonard as top all-time welterweights, so to me, the issue isn't even important.)

Patterson didn't test Liston at all. So, what's the deal ? Was Liston always a no-heart-having bully ? Or was he a really great fighter ?

Liston was pathetic against Clay, surrendering his title like that. This shouldn't even be a controversial point to make. His effort was weak. Everyone should agree with that. Everyone at the time knew it.
The only reason that it riles people to hear it now is because they want to boost either Ali or Liston, or both, by ignoring one of the most shameful efforts of a defending champion you'll ever witness.

 

Liston was 50 years old, haven't you seen him? He need a wheelchair to get in the ring.

Here, you can see Liston coming off the aircraft. You think he's carrying that walking cane to look cool? Think again! An essential fifth limb after his fiftieth birthday.

This content is protected

Here you see typical 1963 trick photography. Liston appears to be holding a heavy chair upright easily, from a hard position that requires a very strong back. Think again. Trick photography. The chair is lifted by ropes from the ceiling, Thunderbird style:

This content is protected

 

The thing with liston was that,he surrendered his title so weakly because Ali psychologically dominated him. Boxing is a mental,as well as a physical thing after all. When it came to physical punishment,Liston was as brave as the next man. Fighting Marty Marshall with a broken jaw,and being up against a fellow tough nut like Cleveland Williams were things that Sonny could understand. Muhammad Ali comes along and totally messes up his mind. This was unchartered territory for Liston.

 

Well, if that's true (and I have no idea how you could know that) then Sonny Liston wasn't a great fighter. He wasn't even a good champion.

 

I know he was 50, but that's no excuse. He would have been 46, 47 when he was beating the likes Williams, Machen, Folley, so age is no excuse.

 

It's a valid point that Liston shouldn't be considered a great fighter giving up his title like that. But he was no doubt a very dangerous fighter. And for a relatively untested 22-year old to perform like Clay did against a fighter as dangerous, feared and skilled as Liston undoubtly was, is great. Make no mistake about it.

 

Nat Fleischer had the old timer's bias in favor of bygone champions. Keeping this in mind, he decreed that Ali was the fastest heavyweight of all time. Combine that attribute with his height, reach, resistance to bleeding and swelling (remember, it was swelling which stopped Frazier in Manila), physical strength, ability to withstand insane body punishment as well as head shots, and boxing skills.

We talk about the conditioning and endurance of Frazier and Marciano, but it was Ali who stopped Wepner and Bonavena in round 15, nearly stopped Shavers in 15, and would have finished matters in Manila after touching gloves with Smoke if Futch had allowed him out for that remaining three minutes.

If he had always remained classified 4F for the draft as he should have been, then he would have become the first champion in any weight division to defend his championship as much as 30 times. As it is, he finished second to Louis with 19 successful title defenses over a total span of more than a dozen years. He won the title for a third time over 14 and a half years after he first attained it.

Again, take away the exile, and he breaks all the records Louis then held for all weight divisions.

 

Who do you reckon would have stopped that reign? Norton?

 

resume wise its clear to see he was the greatest, and for ability in his prime i think all you need to do is watch his title defence against cleveland williams, which i believe to be one of the best displays of heavyweight boxing rpowess in history. He wasnt even in his prime vs frazier norton and foreman, 3 ATG's who he beat past his prime.

 

I think Liston was pretty badly beaten up with eyes closed/bleeding from cuts and he had thrown his best punches to no effect. He may have given up but I don't see how this automatically erases the win for Ali. Liston was a great fighter and he would have still knocked out Floyd Patterson in one round that night. He would have knocked out almost any other man in the division outside of Ali that night. Unfortunately he was facing one of the greatest while not having one of his best nights.

The second fight was a farce all the way but I don't see how anyone can take away credit from Ali for winning the first fight.

 

Giving up means you're not great? Was Sam Langford not great? Roberto Duran? Willie Pep?

Liston proved he could take punishment. His fights with Ali do not define his career. He was not someone who was going to quit at the first sign of adversity. You could even see it in the first Ali fight when he takes a beating in the third round and comes back strong at the end of it. But in the end he had no hope of winning with closed eyes, freely bleeding cuts and an injured shoulder.

 

Smoking Joe.