What made Ali the GOAT?

Yes, Norton, not Frazier, would have been the first loss on Ali's record, especially assuming Muhammad still fails to have his impacted wisdom tooth extracted in a timely manner. (Frazier did not have the type of right hand necessary to exploit this and inflict the injury this caused.)

I believe Muhammad would have won a championship rematch over 15 rounds, and they would have become the signature heavyweight rivalry of their generation, much as Walcott and Charles became during the interlude between Louis and Marciano. Foreman and Frazier would have raised hell, of course, but Kenny, with the support of Futch, would have been Ali's preeminent rival, in a series that would likely have ended before the 1976 rubber match they actually had in Yankee Stadium.

With no exile, Muhammad probably would have aimed for Marciano's record. Assuming Norton did upset him in the attempt, I think Ali would have then aimed to break the record of 25 title defenses that Louis held for all divisions, after he regained the championship from Norton.

 

Of course, when a champion like Liston stops training properly, he is only heading in one direction, however good he is (e.g. towards a beating).

You might want to take into account the fact that Liston trained just as badly for the Patterson rematch.

 

As I said, Liston looked far too god for a 30+ HW to be in terrible shape. He had NO flab on him. He wasn't in top shape, but not in poor shape either. If you don't train and don't live very cleanly (which he certainly didn't) you just don't look that relatively trim. There's no two ways about it. His shape was alright.

 

There's are so many dumb ideas here constanly being recycled that I'm getting a bit weary. NO ONE, with any intellectual pride, should buy into the BS that Liston was irrevocably heading into beating. That no one at the time believed it, goes to show what kind of after-the-fact made up BS it is.

Even with his difficulties against Jones and Cooper, Clay had clearly established himself as top contender. Still, no one gave him a chance. People who saw Liston in training every day was convinced he would slaughter Clay. But somehow, we're all of sudden that much wiser. Ridicolous.

Just like everyone except Duran's actual trainer being wise to what terrible shape he was in. What is it with this macho, menacing fighters? Why can't it be just so simple that they lost against the better man on the night? Is this a kind of middle class closet thing, 'cause a lot of intellectual power is used to argue futile points on this forum.

 

That is the case for a lot of the old time fighters who were purportedly out of shape.

Louis in the first Schmeling fight would look a pinacle of dedication and conditioning today, as would the Liston that quit on his stool or the Tokyo Tyson.

For all the tales of Max Baer being a playboy and a waster I have never seen a picture of him in bad trim.

Obviously the bar was set higher in these era's, but that dosn't tell the whole story.

Anybody who runs regularly runs marathons or half marathons and aspires to better times will tell you that small factors in your regime can have a huge effect.

If a fighter is in good trim and operating a fair training camp, but he goes on a drinking binge in the run up to his title fight, then he will look good in the ring but perform like sh1t.

 

And I don't by the crap about them being in terrible shape either.

If anyone of Schmeling and Louis has excuses to make for their perfomance in any of their two fights it's Schmeling for his in the rematch.

If a fighter is in good trim and operating a fair training camp, but he goes on a drinking binge in the run up to his title fight, then he will look good in the ring but perform like sh1t.[/quote]

Fair enough. But this then would have been missed by the many sports writers present. But somehow we would be wise to it? It just doesn't work that way.

 

If this is in reference to my earlier post, I was taking the ****.

 

Fair enough. But this then would have been missed by the many sports writers present. But somehow we would be wise to it? It just doesn't work that way.[/quote]

Yes it does.

If you (even as an ordinary man) run a half marathon, and want to atain a respectable time e.g. 2 hours, it will depend upon following a certain regime.

You peak two weeks before the race, then train lightly and power eat.

You eat the right things.

No alcohol for a week beforehand or your performance will fall off.

If you drink the night before then you might well vomit in the gutter half way.


Imagine the capacity for a world class athlete to screw himself up with little things.

 

I'd say his unbelievable speed combined with his amazing boxing IQ

 

So we should just assume that this was the case, even though there are no evidence for it?

With your argument we can make the same claim about any fighter that loses unexpectantly. And in fact, many here do - when it suits their purposes.

 

He was one of those athletes that comes along every once in a while like Federer, Woods, Armstrong etc.

He had all the tools and natural ability BUT he also had the will and focus to win. He was also probably the toughest fighter there has ever been.

To deny he was not the GOAT is simply to deny all the evidence.

:smokeatsch:?

 

Well, if you give up like Liston or Duran did, if definitely means you were not great on that night.

I think you're exaggerating his condition. He had a small cut under his eye and some lumps, and his left was still working.
Yes, he held his own in the 3rd round, and the 4th, and won the 5th, then shut down in the 6th and quit. That makes it worse, IMO. The fact that he wasn't really out of the fight at all.

You describe it as if he was almost expected to quit, he was taking some awful beating and it was so one-sided that any champion can be forgiven there for quitting. I disagree. As did almost everyone who saw the fight.

 

Looking in good condition and being in good condition are different.
It's highly unlikely that he trained to go much more than the 3 rounds maximum that everyone figured Clay to be around for. I expect he still could have gone 10 rounds with a lesser fighter than Clay, even in that poor shape. But he didn't train like a champion should.

I dont think Liston was grossly out of shape or anything, but his stamina was bound to be a major weakness. He hadn't figured on needing any.

 

So you think it had nothing to do with Clay at all? Nothing to do with that Liston missed not only more than he had done ever before or since, but more than probably any HW champion ever done in a title fight? Nothing to do with that he couldn't KO Clay even when he had him blinded?

Perhaps Liston showed unforgivable weakness for a champion quitting like he did, but make no mistake about it; no other fighter could have frustrated him the way Clay did that night. There are some that could be favoured to beat that version of Liston, but no other fighter could frustrate him in that way while still doing damage himself. For this Clay should be given huge credit.

 

Funny that no one said that at the time. But you must be one very well informed individual. You would think not being there would be a handicap for you, but obviously not.