What made Ali the GOAT?

I agree that we shouldn't buy into revisionism.

But that goes for Liston's disgraceful quit job too. The vast majority of people who covered the fight, and those who paid to see the fight, live, or on live theatre telecast, recognized Liston's surrender as a very weak effort to defend the title.
The fight ending was unsatisfactory and almost farcical. It left a bad smell. This should be beyond dispute.

 

This was my response to that: "Perhaps Liston showed unforgivable weakness for a champion quitting like he did, but make no mistake about it; no other fighter could have frustrated him the way Clay did that night. There are some that could be favoured to beat that version of Liston, but no other fighter could frustrate him in that way while still doing damage himself. For this Clay should be given huge credit."

 

I dont dispute that Clay was brilliant. But look at all the others he fought who he made miss, who he frustrated, who he tortured - worse than he did Liston. Guys he knocked down and had faces beaten to worse pulp than Liston ever experienced in that fight. They didn't quit.
I mean, we could have forgiven someone like Ernie Terrell if he had quit before the end of the 15-round distance.
So, No, I'm not going to ignore Liston's part in how the fight unfolded. His effort was weak.

That's pure speculation.
I cant say what liston would have or could have done against other fighters. I dont know. I can only give my reading of the Liston-Clay fight.
I'm not going to let Liston off the hook simply because Clay was a brilliant fighter.

 

People close to him have said that Liston didn't train for a long fight with either Patterson rematch or the Clay fight.
And it's understandable, he was human after all. If everyone says Clay cant take a punch and is scared to death, I can see how Liston thought he could cut corners in training.
I'm not saying it's PROVEN FACT, but it's reasonable to believe it, just as I believe Muhammad Ali wasn't in tip-top condition for many of his fights (Norton 1, for example).

 

It was weak how he quit. That I agree with. His effort before that would still have put all but a few select fighters on their backs, though.

You shouldn't let Liston off the hook. It definitely hurts him quitting in that way.

 

It's a fair assumption that he didn't train rigoursly, but there's very little to suggest he was in terrible shape.

I think his fatigue in the 6:th was mostly mental, because he looked as fired up as ever at the start of the 5:th. He went after Clay with real venom, but when he couldn't close the show all the air just seemed to leak out of him.

 

What didn't make him the goat?!
He fought in the "golden age" of boxing, the 70s, when there were all kinds of tough contenders everywhere.
He also did beat most of them, and never lost when he was in his absolute prime.
He only lost 5 times.
His speed is probably the best I've seen on a heavyweight
His jab is a thing of beauty, maybe not as powerful, but he could sit on his jab and let it score points and win a round for him if he wanted.
His footwork was unbelievable. He moved like a middleweight at times.
Never KO'd. (Larry holmes-Ali doesn't count. Ali was a shot fighter by then.)
Plus, he has one of the best chins and hearts in boxing I've ever seen. One thing is for sure, Tyson nor Vitali would survive in a Thrilla in Manilla! That was insane!

 

I think that there is testimony that Liston was not taking his training seriously prior to the fight.

Obviously it wasn't Ali's job to march him to the gym and make him train, and I am noot offering Liston a pardon for this loss. If its any consolation, he was probably in no worse shape than he was for the second Patterson fight.

I don't think that Liston could have donbe any worse if he had trained properly however.

 

Why Ali was NOT the greatest Heavy of alltime in prime.TWO REASONS...
Jack Dempsey
Joe Louis What better reasons? I saw Ali/ Frazier MSG...Great fight ...But Ali was the darling of the media's anti war sentiment...At his best before his banning Henry Cooper just about ko'd Ali in 1963 before the bell. Angelo Dundee sliced Ali's glove between rounds, giving Ali precious more time,while they found another set of gloves.That is a fact...Picture what a Dempsey of Willard and before,ko.ing 25 men in the first round,would have done to Ali,if a mediocre Henry Cooper,accomplished that...Please don,t mention Flynn Ko.ing Dempsey in one round in 1918...It was commonly known by insiders as a DIVE..Besides Dempsey flattened Flynn in one round soon later...As for my alltime favorite,who time forgot,,, Joe Louis ,in his young prime circa, Max Baer,1935, would have destroyed any version of Ali, rope a dope or not....Young Louis even before Conn fight 1941, would have done to Ali what other Ali opponents did'nt do..Hit Ali with clusters of deadly punches,that once tagged, no Louis opponent ever survived...I,m talking about a prime Brown Bomber...Louis was once aptly described as a "coil spring unwinding ", and that he was.....No Ali was not ATG, by no means....

 

Good post. :good

Someone had to say it.

 

I love Billy Conn's great effort against Joe Louis in 1941...Wonderful ,but the Joe Louis of six years before [ 1935 ],would have ko'd brave Billy Conn in short time...Every fighter has a " high water mark ", and for Louis it was 1935...A lethal, deadly , combination puncher was Louis at that prime time.....

 

One fact I never forget about the Conn fight - it was Louis's 7th fight in 7 months ! People overlook that. And he'd had some tough fights leading up to it.
Of course, Conn had been almost as active too, but Louis had been defending the championship against all-comers.
Billy Conn was a great fighter.

I think anything from 1935 - '39 could have been Louis's peak.
And 1942 he produced some great ones (rematches with Abe Simon and Buddy Baer) in fights where he didn't take a penny and donated to the war effort.

 

Ali got like perhaps 5 extra seconds in the Cooper fight. The sliced glove is a some growing legend and near myth. Cooper had no chance, and the extra 5 seconds was so unsubstantial.

 

He said he was so he is.

 

Where? Before the fight that is, not the usual excuses afterwards.