What made Ali the GOAT?

You, sir, add needed perspective, because it is often true Ali is lionized due to the quality of his opponents, but, as has also been noticed here many times, the reason these opponents are elevated is because they fought Ali!

Nobody crushes the Black Uhlan, Max Baer, Abe Simon, Primo Carnera and Buddy Baer as Louis did unless he is an all-time, first-rate destroyer.

It is not unreasonable to place Max Schmeling above Ken Norton.

And I agree: Max Baer gives George Foreman a fight on even terms.

Speaking of the Larupper, let's not forget his punch was just as fabled in his day as Earnie Shavers' is by his generation.

Back in the Seventies, it is fair to say Joe Frazier was considered a notch below Rocky Marciano, to say nothing of Joe Louis. Yet Frazier whooped a very good version of Ali. To many who saw Louis and are no longer living, Ali would be in dire straits, to say the least, against the Brown Bomber.
The pressure applied by left-hooking Frazier, clumsy Foreman and air-swatting Liston would have been lenient in comparison.

Just because Ali shrieked it, it didn't make it so. Louis himself calmly, most confidently went into detail as to how he would lick the Lip.

Rankings are necessarily subjective (and endless fun). But, in the end, Ali himself perhaps said it best: "Joe Louis did the best in his time; Marciano the best in his time; and we all can be the best in our time. And I was the best in my time. And that's how I look at it."

 

Few of Ali's victories were disputed when he was in a reasonable state. If he had retired after Manilla he would have had only two really close wins (Jones and Norton) and neither of them was that disputed and neither was in his prime. After Manilla it was very close/disputed every time he met a decent contender, but he was a different fighter by then.

Louis actually had more close fights in his prime (Godoy, Farr, Pastor), but then he had more fights all in all in his prime.

And you keep suggesting that Ali didn't beat his opponents decisively. What's that from? He had 23 KO's in 29 fights before the exile. He stopped a lot of good opponents in his time, some of them very durable (Bonavena, Foreman). He also made really good opponents like Liston, Patterson, Quarry, Ellis seem a class below him.

 

Joe Louis beat loads of good fighters aside from Schmeling, Baer and Walcott.
Billy Conn, Tommy Farr, Lou Nova, Tami Mauriello, Bob Pastor, Arturo Godoy, Al Ettore .... etc.

I disagree that Quarry is "commonly regarded as the greatest contender of all time". He's not, even with the benefit of him being part of "the division's most competitive era" (which isn't necessarily true either).
I think Sam Langford would certainly be regarded as a greater contender than Quarry. Harry Wills and others too.

Ali's opponents are just better-known than Louis's.

 

ONe of the few fighters to prove it in a loss.

 

I totally agree with you. From the first Quarry fight right through to Manila,he made easy work of most of his opponents. The only two who beat him,Frazier and Norton,were a fellow all time great,and a very good fighter. Ali evened the score with both of them. As I've mentioned on other threads,some people appear to think that Ali was the only boxer to cop lucky decisions when he got older. Far from it.

 

Ali is a GOAT for his actions in and out of the ring. Ali was not viewed as a top 5 heavy after he lost to Frazier. His comeback suffered a set back when he got whipped by Norton.

I think the Foreman win is what made Ali who he is. After all, Foreman smashed Fraser and Norton.

 

Yes, but these were not his BEST fighters, and nor do they amount to the upper or even second teir of men that Ali fought. If we're going to start naming everybody, then I might as well throw in Cleveland Williams, Zora Folley, George Chuvalo, Oscar Bonavena, etc.. Do you think that Louis's resume has more depth than Ali's?

Well I'm not the first person to make this claim.

Again, its a popular opinion that it was the greatet era, and frankly I don't have a problem with anyone who refers to it as such. You had at least 3 all time great champions who co-existed and fought each other, along with a few second tier guys who probably could have been titelists in other eras... Make of it what you will, but it sure beat the hell out of the days of Braddock, Baer, Carnera, Sharkey, etc.... It was also much better than any time period where a color line existed.

Seen much film of these men? I haven't..... And if we want to get technical, Langford and Wills did hold a fragment known as the world's colored heavyweight title.. No, it wasn't the real deal, but let's just say that it was probably the comparable of what an alpha title might have been in a later period.... Quarry never held any such titles of any kind, hence making him a contender in the truest form, whereas Langford and Wills weren't..

And for good reason.

 

I will not dispute the quality of Ali's opponents, possibly tops...But I compare great fighters against each other,such as Louis vs Ali, in my minds eye...I still see young Louis,a great destructive puncher,catching up to Ali, before his exile, or after,and koing Ali....Louis with his deadly and FAST combinations, would have sometimes in the fight, been Ali's downfall...My opinion...Regardless of respective opponents...

 

That's your opinion. I think the likes of Farr, Mauriello, Conn, etc. stack up well with Ali's "second tier", Quarry included.

About equal.

The 1930s and 1940s has plenty of tough heavyweights, and competition. Yes, Louis fought some unworthy challengers because he was on a fast schedule. Ali did the same thing.

Quarry was a good fighter. I think Louis beat several who were in that league though.

Most of Ali's opponents were better-known because they fought in the television-era.

 

Would be a great fight to witness, that's for sure. Louis punching was something to behold. Would love to see him against Tyson and Frazier as well.

 

23 KO's in 29 fights before exile. Championship fights 8 Ko's in 10 before exile (Terrell & Chuvalu both lasting 15 rounds and being lucky to win a round). That tells you how good peak Ali was and how much better he was than his opposition (and look at that KO record for being a light hitter - damn that's unusual lol). But let's talk about old Ali who fought Jimmy Young when comparing him to the greats

 

I loved Chuvalo ,tough and brave.... But There were heavyweights just as tough as Chuvalo who Louis absolutely Destroyed...One was Paolino Uzcudun .a bull of a man who previously ko'd an older Harry Wills. Louis flattened Uzcudun in 1935 with a right hand that tore Paolinos teeth threw his upper gums...Louis also stopped a hard as nails Arturo Godoy in their second fight in 1940..Louis would have stopped the brave but easy to hit Chuvalo in three rounds, such was the Brown Bombers prowess...

 

louis was a big puncher, ali was not but speed kills so he should have a better KO record but at their peaks interesting facts appear. take any heavyweights first 10 championship fights and see how many have a 80% KO record. this will be a fighter's peak when they win the heavyweight belt and their first defences of the title. e.g. tyson v berbick, thomas, spinks etc. 90s tyson wasn't the peak 80s version who first won the title just like 70s Ali wasn't the peak 60s version.

 

He beat 7 ATG fighters. That is very good.