What Makes Style?

Good post, i liked that. And Dempsey may fit in there aswell. I think Tunney was very tough, moreso than simply the great moving boxer than people give him credit for. But when he did show his hit without being hit style at its best, like in the Dempsey bouts, i think his intelectual personality mirrored his style.

 

Yeah Chinx, i know this may not be true for all examples, but it seems some of the more 'classy' fighters were the ones who could be versatile in terms of styles. Like Gavilan, Robinson, Hopkins (not sure if that's a good example, but he has certainly been one of the great versatile fighters imo) etc.

It may be something to do with 'ring intelligence' maybe? Thinking fighters i mean.

 

Very much so, in a way, i really have the utmost respect for fighters like Frazier, because of the reasons you have outlined, he was always Smokin Joe and that was that. Not sure if he had the frame to really become a slick boxer even if he wanted to though!! But look at a guy like Sandy Saddler, who did have that frame, and was a great fighter who, who knows, may have had the skill to turn boxer if he wanted (we'll never know), but was seemingly enraged in the ring and just went after guys.

 

That's very interesting that, ive always wondered if some boxers idolize fighters with different styles to them, styles which, for some reason or another, they have found difficult to make their own. And you would know as good as anyone given your old man's situation when he was an active pro. Good info, thanks for that!

 

Natural aptitude naturally generally dictates the kind of fighter you become. Joe Frazier could not easily become a long-range boxer. But personal idiosyncrasy may ultimately trump natural aptitude.

Jack Johnson had tremendous strength; yet, rather than becoming a mindless brute in the ring, he chose to be a technician, one of the very greatest of them all.

Happenstance is important, too: Tyson developed the peek-a-boo because his trainer was D'Amato. Had he been trained by Dick Saddler, who was enamored of Foreman's power, he might have never become the proficient puncher he was, but simply a power-happy slugger.

In a word, your destiny makes your style, if you will: if you are destined to become Ali, you will develop into Ali out of a combination of your circumstances, physical ability and what makes you tick. Rudy Clay never became a champion, though Ali's brother, because the Rudy Clays of the world don't become Muhammad Ali.

 

Very good, greatness is just greatness at the end of it all.

 

Thanx, buddy. I would add that, once a performer reaches the threshold of greatness, whatever his field, he (or she) begins to feed on something on a higher level as he feels he is pulling ahead of the pack and there are few or no precedents to fall back on. At this point he begins to have "conversations with God", securely feeling his way forward to fulfill his destiny. It is what Elvis, the Beatles, Nolan Ryan, Joe Montana, Michael Jordan and so many other greats have done. They eventually create something that wasn't there before.

I have heard it said Ali paid little heed to Dundee and that he basically trained himself. Of course, he was taught the basics and from that took what he wished based on his personal idiosyncrasy, polished that through arduous work and developed his own style.

Perhaps no trainer is given greater credit for developing a great than Jack Blackburn, Louis' trainer. Louis himself humbly said, "Chappie made a fighter out of me." But I am sure, in the end, only Louis made it happen for Louis, and if no heavyweight has ever again displayed the Bomber's unique patient, lethal stalking style, it is on account of Joe's unique heart of a champion.

 

Really a great thread by Chinxkid. An intelligent and compelling conversation by all of the above.

I'd agree that body structure is the practical determiner. If I'm long and tall and have a skinny neck and a narrow chin, i'm gonna fight from range and develop legs like Ginger Rogers. If God gave me a strong back, a shock absorber neck, big legs, and a short stature, I'm gonna have me some ribs at the Friday night fights.

Athleticism is also a factor. If you have demon speed and the reflexes of a cat, why not get shakespearean and "hit but don't be hit?" Why risk brain damage? Some guys however have no choice because they have neither the speed nor the capability to fight otherwise. Marciano was asked how he was going to deal with Louis's jab. His answer? I'm going to have to just take it.

The trainer's influence is also very important. Most trainers are not Dundee types or Arcel types, who allow the fighter to develop naturally and make suggestions (in the former's case) or adjustments (in the latter's case). Most trainers are "my way or the highway types" -stubborn and ornery.

Disposition may be the most important. But what is "disposition" -the willingness to accept punishment? Why would someone be willing to accept punishment? I'd say that the a fighter's upbringing, early childhood, socio-economic class, juvenile peer group, self-image and self-esteem are primary determinants in this question. I think that we can safely develop a hypothesis based on this. There are exceptions to be sure, but there also may be a significant relationship between these factors, which I will shear down to "level of anger" and liklihood to become a "boxer".

Most guys take up boxing because they have a hole in them. Let's be honest. For most, at least historically, that hole was put there by deprivation. For some, it is the need to compete.

Within boxing itself, some guys are willing to accept punishment, even inviting it, and they fight as if their lives depended on it. Latino fighters are not known to have come from anything but desperate circumstances. Duran is the norm, Barrera is the exception.

I would venture to you that "level of anger" is inversely related to "the shakespearean, stick and move style"

............
This smells like an article. I'm going to develop this. Any suggestions or comments?

 

I would venture to add the Shakespearean style is directly related to how highly a fighter esteems his own intellect.