What most people don't understand about Frazier-Foreman II.

Yes.

 

I think Ali's 1970's peak was Frazier II. Harry Carpenter wrote that this was when he dug down to rediscover the hand and foot speed he'd been missing since his return from exile, and he otherwise never stunned Frazier with a single punch the way he did with that staggering right hand in the second round.

To this day, I'm not sure exactly how much Manila actually took out of Ali. He was overweight for Coopman and Young, but nonetheless made a third 1976 defense against Dunn just three and a half weeks after Young at 220 pounds, and looked just fine. Without the Inoki farce, just concentrating on boxing, he might have pulled off seven or eight title defenses at the rate he started 1976 at. I think physical conditioning and training was still a determining factor in his performance based on Dunn (who he probably could have wiped out as quickly as Bugner did, if not for his focus on showmanship).

He was perfectly cognizant resting on the canvas immediately after Manila, recalling the bout in detail with Don Dunphy, and shaking hands with Frazier during the interview when Joe came over to congratulate him. Inoki screwed up his legs, and Shavers inflicted the brain damage which effected his fine muscle coordination ever since. (Even in beating Leon during their rematch, Cosell repeatedly noted Ali's misfiring and compromised timing. No amount of training could reverse what Shavers did to him.)

Manila may have provided a dramatic narrative for Cosell, but I suspect Ali's true Manila was Shavers. Nobody else ever stood up under that many clean head shots from Earnie.

 

No one fight caused Ali's "Parkinson's syndrome " condition to appear. It was many years of bouts where he took head shots repeatably. Frazier 1 and 3, Foreman, Norton 1, 2 and 3, and Certainly Shavers. Ali took many shots from Leon Spinks in their first fight that did not help. Ali also spent many hundreds of rounds in training perfecting laying on the ropes. Even with head gear and big gloves every punch to the head rattled Ali's brain within his skull.

 

I'm puzzled by the attitude of some towards this fight, they seem determined to take something out of it for Frazier as though this fight was competitive.
I love Smokin Joe one of my all time favourites,but he didn't win a round in there, never ever knocked Foreman out of his stride and couldn't remotely back him up.
Joe had the **** beaten out of him in there, end of.

 

Well that's the sane view of what transpired but apparently some live in an alternate reality.

 

dude no version of frazier beats foreman / its not that frazier sucks cause hes an all time great / but styles make fights and joe frazier did not have the style ever prime for prime to beat george foreman ..

 

Yes three rounds is a little longer. Obviously in your world getting KO'd in five rounds instead of two is a massive improvement.

You've contradicted yourself again. Do you know what year it is?

You made a statement. You back it up. Claiming it is "known boxing history" doesn't mean anything.

Define troubling. Staying upright for a few more rounds?

Hate doesn't make you a better fighter. He wasn't a Jedi. Hating Foreman would not have improved his chances one iota. Notice how Frazier always did much better against Ali than Foreman in fights spread over a five year period. You think that was just an accident? I put it down to the styles, strengths and weaknesses of the three fighters. You say it's because he "hated" Ali.

You think the 1975 Frazier who was older, heavier, had more mileage and worse health issues was better than he was in 1973. Got it. :good

 

Certainly these things are cumulative, but Manila repeatedly gets pointed to as the moment of no possible return for Ali to that level of performance again. What happened though was that he let himself get out of shape while still an actively defending champion.

Forget about Young for a second, and check out his flabby gut for Coopman. At 226, that wasn't even a career high for him (he also weighed 226 for Mac Foster, and 227 for Buster Mathis), and it was clear he hadn't trained very much for Coopman (and in fact was actually under-trained and a bit overweight for Manila). Although he meted out a good deal of punishment to the Belgian, Ali essentially knocked him out with a big right as Coopman was boring in.

Over-matched British opponents were cursed when it came to Ali, particularly London, Cooper II, Bugner and Dunn. I wonder how the 220 pound Ali of the Dunn beating would have performed in Manila. His legs were good, he was quick, sharp, smartly went directly to his lead right (Mildenberger would not have lasted into round 12 with this southpaw wise version of Ali), and was repeatedly dropping Dunn with single shots in a way he hadn't since Bob Foster. There was nothing whatever seemingly amiss with his timing and coordination.

I don't see Evangelista lasting the distance with the Ali of the Dunn defense. I believe what Inoki did to his legs may have deprived him of the power to set down on his shots. If Ali had set a strict weight limit for himself of no more than 220 pounds, Ali-Young might have looked very different.

He had four bouts after Shavers, and even in the first couple rounds against Holmes before the Thyrolar overdose kicked in, his timing and coordination never, ever looked the same again. He remembers enough about Shavers to have confirmed on camera that Earnie was the hardest puncher he was ever hit by, but his recall of much of that bout is a blank, and that's something which hadn't really happened before. (Noteworthy that he was NOT interviewed in the ring following Shavers.)

 

Ali's 70s peak was the window of 1972-74. When he'd trained properly -

Quarry II
Norton II
Frazier II
Foreman.



Yes,the amount of shots he took from Shavers were scary ! Two or three years earlier.he'd have avoided or blocked a lot of them. He took more flush in any three rounds of the Shavers bout than he did in all eight rounds against Foreman.

 

It is very true it was not until his fights with Sinks that I noticed something was wrong with Ali. Especially going into the second bout where the press was aghast that Ali was "not talking". The idea was Ali was serious for this fight and not playing around however the times where you hear Ali speak it was not the same Ali. So I believe there is merit to the idea that the blows administered by Shavers did damage in terms of pushing Ali over the edge.

 

this. thread should have been closed on firs page. Swag unable to see forest for the trees.

 

Pacheco quit prior to or right after the Shavers bout. As an MD, he knew there was neurological damage. Too bad, Ali didn't listen to him.