All due respect rules, but I've never agreed with the view that Lyle outboxed and/or troubled Ali during their bout. Ali was simply in one of his lazy moods and wasn't doing much of anything. He came into the bout woefully out of shape 224 pounds which was the highest he'd ever been. Lyle was ahead on account of being the busier man. Lyle himself wasn't doing much but seemed content to do just enough to win the rounds. No more, no less. He didn't remotely hurt Ali nor have him in any danger. Their's a night and day difference between the Ali who fought Lyle and Thrilla Ali a couple months later. I don't think Lyle was a very good boxer at all. Very predictable and mechanical imo (though this is expected from someone who started in their 30s). He had absolutely nothing for Jimmy Young in two fights. He won a single round against Young in both their fights. Ruddock imo before he fell in love with his power was a much better boxer, as was Bruno as seen against Lewis.
I think you're right about Ali being disinterested during the Lyle fight. And yes, it's a terrible shame in regard to Ruddock and his ditching of what was a really good jab and skills. You know...I always wondered how Iron Mike would have done against the Young who beat Foreman. I used to think Jimmy just didn't have the firepower to stop Mike (or radically slow him down/make him change his gear). But at times he had radically great timing on his punches. He really was an excellent heavyweight, and as you probably will agree, miles ahead of guys like Lyle (and Bruno imo).
I don't think Young was quite busy enough to do anything with Tyson. The Foreman who fought Young was quite frankly a shell of himself. He'd changed his body mechanics and style to try to improve, but ironically it did the exact opposite. His jab and power, were far inferior, he wasn't nearly as busy, and even though he wasn't nearly as busy as he was before, his stamina didn't improve.
Right, both Holy and Douglas were plenty busy. It's apparently a key ingredient to beating Mike, especially post-prison.
Honestly I don't see Young boding well against swarmers, at least elite-level swarmers like Frazier or Tyson. I think he is tailor-made for them.
Possibly around the time Tyson lost to Evander. Lyle traded at point blank with both Earnie Shavers and George Foreman in a four month period beating one of them and giving the other fits. That might have been a problem for a post prison Tyson
Although Holyfield made him look bad and won a brutal war, that was still a decent world class version of Tyson in the mid 90's. He handled Bruno with ease and still had good hands speed, combinations, body shots, decent timing, etc. Tyson from 95-97 (Mathis to Holyfield 1) should be favored to win with moderately high difficulty, but I give Lyle a small 20% chance of an upset. From the 2nd Holyfield fight to Botha onwards, his chances rapidly decline. Tyson still had his power, but pretty much nothing else. Stamina garbage, mediocre defense, no more head movement, only a fraction of his hand speed, but most importantly: his heart simply wasn't in boxing anymore. The "bite of the century" was Tyson mentally checking out and was simply there for paydays because he couldn't do anything else. Lyle absolutely crushes any version of Tyson from that fight and beyond. His ruggedness, mental fortitude, strength, good fundamentals, endurance, etc are the perfect kryptonite for a declining champ whose mentally checked out.
Tyson isn’t a swarmer, He’s an aggressive counter puncher. It’s why he struggles with boxers like James tillis, who Joe Frazier would have made short work of.
I will say again, no version, ever, of Ron Lyle … who may be the single most overrated human being discussed in this venue … defeats any version of Mike Tyson. Or non damaged Muhammad Ali. Or Joe Louis. Or Larry Holmes. Or Jack Johnson. Or Sonny Liston. Or Joe Frazier. Or anyone else noteworthy that someone might conjure up in a fever dream.
While I agree Lyle is by far the most overrated fighter on here, I do think at the latest, any post-Lewis Tyson would lose to Lyle.
Fair take but I would have to see it to believe it. I’m sorry, I saw him in real time and was just never impressed by Lyle in the least. But YMMV.
I'm not impressed by him either. I think he was worse than Cleveland Williams, Frank Bruno, Ruddock, and many other big punchers who could never win the title. He has less wins over rated opposition than either of them, and did far worse against boxers, yet he's in more H2H matchups than them, and favored over far more proven fighters. It gets ridiculous. I can just about favor the Tyson of the Lewis bout over Lyle especially seeing as how he did against Golota. But the Tyson of the McBride, and Williams fights was a shell of himself and it was painfully obvious, even moreso when you take into account the men he lost to. While I find Lyle very overrated, even I favor Lyle over this version of Tyson. He was simply done.
Lyle can be overrated but let's not swing the pendulum to the other extreme. He's certainly better than Danny ****ing Williams and Kevin McBride.