What Point In Time Does Ron Lyle Beat M Tyson?

1) Lyle was able to go 10 full rounds on 11 separate occasions. He went 12 rounds on 5 separate occasions. His record in distance going fights is 11-1-3. A guy with 6/10 stamina wouldn't have a record like that.

2) Lyle only "gassed" against Foreman because he decided to slug it out with the heaviest hitter in history and got beaten to a pulp. That's also the only fight where his stamina looked bad, and Foreman landing bombs to the body and head is why.

3) I do agree you could bump his heart to a 9, guy was a honey badger.

 

This is kinda back to the future in the Classic Forum.

When I started to hang around over here the Forum was going through a severe case of "tYsOnIzGoD!!!" .... every other thread would be about Tyson destroying Louis, Tyson destroying Foreman, Tyson destroying Ali, etc. etc. etc.

I thought Classic forum was already over its "tYsOnIzGoD!" syndrome .... but it is back to rehab, it seems.

PS. BTW In my opinion "normal" Tyson should defeat Lyle in a regular basis, but if it is washed up Tyson we are talking about, then Lyle (assuming his best version) has a decent chance of pulling an upset.

 

Fair enough. I concede the point.

 

Yes Lyle had a bad habit of fighting to his opponents level. You already mentioned the Ali bout, but the Young bout is a glaring example as well. He was in with an opponent who was never going to hurt him so he had no sense of urgency. Against Shavers and Foreman who were both threats and hurt him, he suddenly put his foot on the gas.

He also sparred with Norton, and from the sounds of it Norton got the better of it, as Lyle later talked about wanting revenge against Norton who he felt like was taking advantage of him, and going hard on a rookie.

 

Yes I’ve read/heard re Lyle wanting revenge on Ken for going hard on him in sparring.

Can’t be certain but I think Ron originally went there to spar Frazier but for whatever reason he ended up sparring Norton.

The Young fights were terrible for Ron, no excuses there and that’s another good example as you said.

Interesting that when Jimmy had a glint of a possibly successful and lucrative future in boxing, it seems he really put his best foot forward - he had that terrific run against the cream of the 70s crop.

Jimmy was very candid in an SI Vault article - saying he didn’t really fight to win, rather, his primary concern was to not get hit or suffer any permanent injuries.

I’ll admit that it took me a long while but I’ve come to appreciate Young’s abilities a lot more. He could read and time his opponents very well - he would’ve been extremely frustrating to fight. Sad that he passed at such a young age.

 

At no time, Ron Lyle was beaten by Jerry Quarry on Feb 9 1973, Lyle could not even beat Jimmy Young or a post Zaire George Foreman on Jan 24 1976. Sure Lyle scored some knockdowns but bottom line he could not finish the job on Foreman who was ego deflated following his loss to Muhammad Ali on Oct 30 1974. Mike Tyson in both career, pre Buster Douglas and post prison had a ferocious killer instinct, also he had good boxing skills, Lyle's career was checkered.

 

Frustrating to fight and frustrating to watch. His other big problem was inconsistency. In a career spanning 21 years, he was only really good for three of them. After losing to Norton and feeling he was robbed by the judges (again) he seems to have lost motivation.

Lyle's two bouts with Young is another reason I find Lyle overrated (even if you may disagree). He simply couldn't do anything in two fights, yet he gets praise for being a good boxer. Cleveland Williams (who I concede I am a big fan of as you know) was a much better boxer, did MUCH better in his slickster against Machen, and seemed the more versatile of the two, imo.

I said this earlier, that though Lyle may have won H2H between them, Shavers may very well have been the superior fighter. Shavers is somewhat of an enigma. He did far better against (especially) Ellis, and Young than Lyle did, but he also did worse against Quarry, and lost to Stallings who Lyle would never get caught dead losing to.

Shavers seemed to handle boxers better but would lose to less than world-class opponents Lyle would never lose to.

On the other hand I think Norton may have been on the list, of fighters Shavers would do substantially better against.

Both have some very glaring weaknesses, and strengths over the other. which makes them very interesting H2H.

 

Yeah, it’s fine to disagree of course and, when the discussion is reasonable, it’s not often that either party will actually disagree 100% with the other.

A fair measure of common ground is often shared. True, Young wasn’t the most pleasurable fighter to watch - probably why we have to look harder to appreciate such fighters.

Side note: For me, Joe Louis checks every box for an entertaining fighter - technically perfect but an exciting, action fighter also - when I watch the old films, I’m riveted by his every, purposed move and also buoyed by the knowledge that Louis is about to explode on his man at first opportunity.

Re Young and his inconsistencies - a talented and prudent support team is VERY important when starting out and making passage through the ranks.

For all his abilities otherwise, Ali had that support in buckets - he couldn’t have wanted for better in that regard - and it made no mean contribution to Muhammad’s successes imo. Young didn’t have that much at all, as I read it.

Certainly, an early career fight vs Chuvalo was averted until Muhammad fully found his feet as a pro - otherwise, Chuvalo could’ve been a somewhat dangerous and derailing fight for pre title Ali.

It seems that Young, without necessary promise of success and $$$ in return for committed effort, perhaps had the mindset of a journeyman plodding along for little $$$ who then chose to get serious and put the pedal to metal with his first whiff of notable success - and therefore we saw the stream of several years worth of success for Jimmy.

For the first Shavers fight, Jimmy was basically thrown to the wolves - likely viewed as another easy victim to add to Earnie’s early career padding. The records of some of Shavers’ early career KO victims are shocking. Lol.

With more experience under his belt, Jimmy got the draw (disputed by observers) in the rematch - but Shavers still reached him and, per accounts, Earnie put Young down hard in the 4th round. I really wish we had both fights to see for ourselves.

I know you like Cleve and I think that’s great - it’s very much part of why we follow the sport - our personal faves.

Having said that, I genuinely subscribe to several of your views on The Big Cat - not to overstate Cleve but I do think some underrate him in certain depts - including skill and chin.

I love the 2 Liston fights - I see two highly skilled, supremely conditioned fighters intelligently going at it with nuclear power in their fists. What more could a fan want from a fight?

The Lyle vs Shavers fight is viewable but would be much better if the quality was 100%.

As it appears in the footage, Earnie landed everything and the kitchen sink - but Lyle took it - so Lyle’s own durability is being undersold imo.

Sure, Foreman KO’d Ron but it was Foreman, so not really necessary to add much more than that.

I actually attribute more skill and hand speed to Shavers than most other people. Interesting to contrast Earnie with Tyson.

To accent on Shavers’ raw power, I think some people underrate his skills, particularly as a puncher who knew how to get the big shots home.

Conversely, to accent on Tyson’s skills and hand speed - which, of course, were very REAL in their own right, I see a tendency to underrate Mike’s own raw and significant, single punch power - examples of which there are many.

 

Excellent post! Off for a late run outside right now but when I get back I’ll respond in length.

 

I agree. You and I agree 90% of the time I reckon. Nothing wrong with disagreeing once in a while. As long as we handle it in a mature way.... like for example admitting the 10% of the time we disagree that you're wrong.

Fair enough. I think my favorite to watch are either Frazier, or Holyfield. Neither know the meaning of the word quit. I love watching Frazier absorb bomb after bomb from very respectable punchers like Ali and still chugging forward, undeterred with that left hook that never rests or take a break.

Similarily I love watching Holyfield ever the warrior, slug it out with guys bigger, and stronger than him even though he has other avenues that would be much easier.

I agree. Just saw a poster a while back that made a very good point. Nobody made it further with such a non-existant career than Liston, which speaks to his highly underrated ring IQ, and skills.

I agree. He was also steered clear of Cleveland Williams in '62 (smart move. '62 Williams likely beats any version of Ali as you know), and possibly Eduardo Corletti. Might be missing someone else. Their's nothing wrong with that.

Liston on the other hand was thrown to the wolves from the start to see if he could sink or swim. Marshall I believe was rated in their first bout. Don't quote me on that though.

I was just about to mention Young being fed to Shavers as an example of atrocious management.

Yes, I also heard that Young had a gassed Shavers ready to go in the last two rounds as well. Hmm I'm actually quite curious about the rematch now. Will do some sleuthing to learn more about it.

I've always felt bad for him. Like Liston's other opponent forever linked to him, he's always seemed to have bad luck.

Zero amateur career so he learned his trade by feasting on obscure names.

His first loss to Sylvester Jones when he was extremely green, also has some dubious circumstances. Williams was chasing Jones around the ring, when the bout was abruptly cut short to make room for the main event (Marciano against Walcott I believe), and the scorecards were tallied from that point.

The loss means nothing imo. If bouts were stopped early and scored in that manner. Many ATGs would've had more losses. Ali would've lost to Banks, and Cooper. Frazier loses to Quarry, and Mike ****ing Bruce of all people.

He was also, still very green when his manager matched him with Satterfield as a last-minute substitute no less, because Satterfield's scheduled opponent never showed up, and William's manager owed the promotor a favorite.

He won the first round, before hurting Satterfield and getting excited and going in for the kill, which was a result of his youth and inexperience.

And in his prime, he had the misfortune of sharing an era with likely the only person who could beat him; an also prime Liston.

On top of all that, he comes razor close to qualifying for a title bout, and draws with the number 2 rated Machen, with two judges scoring it a draw, and the third for Williams by a clear margin which eliminates him from a title shot.

Injures his hands against Young Jack Johnson, and as such goes into the rematch with Terrell (who imo was not much improved than the Terrell Williams had knocked out just a year prior) with damaged hands, and comes close to knocking a gassed Terrell out, only to lose a controversial razor thin SD (In Chicago where Terrell lived at the time), where the AP scored it for him.

In '64 things are finally looking up. Williams seems to be doing his best work. He becomes the number 2 contender and beats Billy Daniels to qualify for a rubber match with Terrell for the championship opportunity that's alluded him his entire career..... then lady luck turns on him again. He gets shot by a policeman during a scuffle, loses 60 pounds, dies on the operating table, loses ten feet of his intestines, suffers permanent partial paralysis in his hips. Works his ass off, makes an unlikely return and comes back albeit as a shell of himself.

Fitting that now that he's shot (literally) he gets the title shot he's waited so long for........ against the greatest of all time..... on his absolute best day.

He also didn't have the best corner, and like Liston (even he had a better corner) had to resort to his ring IQ to win fights, and though he was definitely skilled, even an average trainer could've done wonders for him. Such as fixing up an already decent, though nothing special jab, improving his footwork, and most importantly teaching him how to better defend himself when hurt. In between knockdowns against Liston for example, he doesn't seem to know what to do, he pretty ineffectively retreats to the ropes, and then just seems puzzled, most likely because he'd never really been hurt like that since he fought Satterfield. To be fair though he does seem to improve after the Liston fights.

I agree. Williams was deceptively skilled imo, but like I said, with a better trainer he could've been so much more. Technique wise he does seem much better against Terrell in their rematch than he does against Liston.

Regarding his chin, I also think it was very good. Only person who knocked him out in his prime was Liston, and he walked through many of his punches before succumbing. Their were multiple exchanges where he ate fully clean punches and returned better than he got! People like to say "oh but guys like Besmanoff and Machen lasted a lot longer", which is only true because they boxed him. They certainly didn't engage him head on like Williams did or their nights would've been over a lot quicker.

I agree. Both men, show great skills in this fight. Williams reflexes and defense were surprisingly very good here to. This is one of my favorite moments from the fights that get overlooked. Liston throws a jab, Williams slips it beautifully and immediately counters to the body then hits Liston with a right-left which Liston defends beautifully.

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I think it was Phillyphan who said he preferred their fights to Lyle-Foreman and round 2 in the second fight despite being cut short due to the KO delivers more skill than the entirety of Foreman-Lyle.

Williams triple-quadruple hooks in a row are a beauty to behold.

For Williams to win

I admittedly haven't watched in quite a while but from what I remember Lyle was dropped near the end of the round and in a bad way, and the round ended as Shavers started walking to him.

Shavers chin was VERY underrated imo. He took Lyle's shots beautifully and didn't flinch..... until he ran out of gas.

 

Sorry had to break this into two seperate posts @Pugguy

Fair point. I just don't see what many see in Lyle imo. Perhaps I'm missing something. I certainly don't think he was nearly as skilled as Williams judging by their aforementioned bouts with Liston and Foreman. It's obvious to me at least he didn't have his endurance, speed, defense, nor ring IQ. Williams also looked more powerful to me visually though this is up for debate, as is chin.

I'll rewatch a couple fights of Ron to get a better understanding of him and see if my view changes.

I admittedly have a bad habit of honing in on a glaring loss like I did with Lyle and Young. Shavers loss to Stallings is even worse imo.

I will grant you this, Shavers had a very sneaky way of disguising his power punches, particularly in combos.

It's funny you mention that. I remembered your comment on Tyson-Douglas and just rewatched Tyson's one-shot uppercut over Douglas. I'll join you in that Douglas did seem to be a lot more hurt than I remembered. The ref was also counting seemingly slower and slower as every second passed (I think the worst was the 6 round mark). He's clearly wobbly as he gets up and walks a little funny to his corner, his legs definitely aren't there imo which is why he does that little kick when he reaches his corner.

I do think he still would've gotten up though.

A good comparison is the long count with Dempsey and Tunney. Tunney maintained even without the long count, he'd have still risen but didn't know if he'd have been able to survive Dempsey's follow-up attack without those extra precious seconds (I personally don't think he would've). I think this is a very similar situation though not quite as se

 

Well Swag, I can only find myself agreeing with 90% of your post - and part of the 10% disagreement on this occasion includes rejection of your reasoning for the cause of all our previous 10 percent’s worth of dissension.

Still fine though. We’ve yet again reached our high end, 90% KPI consensus target - therefore, we’re still in line for our end of year monetary bonuses plus Xmas meat tray..

I’ll just add that I believe that Buster arose only when it was actually viably possible for him to do so.

I think it was more a case of the meter of Meyran’s count deferring to Buster as opposed to Douglas deferring to the count.

Key points are the facts that

1) Meyran’s meter most def. slowed at the business end of the count - as if, consciously or unconsciously, he was allowing for that little bit of extra time for Douglas to arise.

2) Even with that extra time, Buster left it extremely fine before he arose - being about 1/2 sec or more perhaps AFTER Meyran tolled “9”.

3) Meyran clearly showed no interest in maintaining his count after the toll of “9” - basically dropped tools as Douglas positioned himself to arise.

4) You can see that Buster barely scraped himself up, the required level effort being obvious just to get back and...

5) When on his feet, Douglas was still clearly wobbly.

So the longer count not only gave Buster more time but it also shortened up the remainder of the round - leaving no time for Mike to get at him again.

 

hmm I just rewatched it again, and the ref just straight up turns his head around at the count of 6, and stops counting for a good second and a half at least.

Even by the referee's own count he should've reached 10. He started to actually rise at 9 but both feet weren't on the floor until 10.

And yes I agree, Douglas was still wobbly ESPECIALLY when he walks back to his corner.

I just rewatched again and yes Douglas clearly isn't all there when he gets up either. I guess I just read so many posts here swearing Douglas was fine and dandy when he rose, that I just believed it myself.

Also what did you think about that moment in the Williams-Liston fight that I timestamped for you?

 

Very nice evasion and counter executions on Cleve’s part.

Tbh, Cleve was boxing extremely well in that fight - perhaps the best I’ve seen of him.

However, once The Big Cat whiffed blood, he threw his earlier round caution to the wind somewhat.

Given how good Williams looked against Sonny, albeit abbreviated - I’ve checked myself to see if it was only due to the particular stylistic mesh he had with Liston.

But, after many rewatches and consideration, I think it’s fair to judge that Williams’ very good boxing skills were on display absolute - in their own right - not just a case of Cleve “appearing” to be a that good just because he was fighting Sonny.

His hands were fast, his jab was on point and he landed many effective, powerful left hooks. He was also judging and keeping optimal distance from Sonny - at least initially.

But then we also have to give it up to Liston - so cool under such fire - sticking to his own quality boxing skills - NOT forgetting his own jab as so many other fighters might’ve under the same duress.

That enabled Liston to get in close, and his short inside punches were nothing short of devastating. The Sonny Man definitely knew how to box - and with extreme power in accompaniment.

I’ve always rated the Liston-Williams stoushes (particularly fight 1) as being better than Foreman vs Lyle.

The performances of both Liston and Williams make George and Ron appear relatively sloppy by comparison - though Ron was throwing an excellent right cross against Foreman - that particular punch did a lot of damage.

I would guess that Ron perhaps took a leaf out of Ali’s book after Zaire - but then Lyle had used his right before to great effect.

Lyle absolutely poleaxed big Jack O’Halloran with a single right hand - Jack freezing for a nano second and then falling as if he’d been literally shot.

 

I agree. Very underrated performance. Very cute defense as well.

I agree. It's why I always chuckle when people call Liston a bully who quit every time someone stood up to him.

I agree. Like Foreman in the aforementioned Lyle fight. He'd all but abandoned it especially in the 4th.

I agree. It's still somewhat odd to me after years of watching, that somone with Liston's long arm can be so effective inside.

I admittedly haven't watched in some time, but I distinctively remember a couple of things. I think it was the beginning of the first round, Lyle came in and threw an extremely sloppy right which Foreman easily slipped, then Lyle hit his head on the turnbuckle.

I remember round 2 ending early when Foreman had Lyle in trouble, the fourth round of course, and Lyle gassing badly after the 4th.

I also noticed Foreman's distinctive changes in his body mechanics which imo added to the awkwardness. His legs were way to close together, which took away a lot of his leverage, and left him off balance. His uppercuts though still powerful, were not nearly as powerful as they were before, and looked slanted for lack of a better term. And his jab (when he would actually use it) had no motion or weight behind it.

Hm I'll have to watch. Speaking of O'halloran, he also credited Williams as being the hardest puncher he'd ever faced.