What rationale is there to rate Dempsey higher than Marciano?

Good observation... it did seem odd Depmsey couldn't do a great deal with Willard after that first round, knockdown wise.

 

I think that when he failed to get a first round knockout he settled back to a more modest pace and tried to outbox Willard.

 

First of all, Kearn's all or nothing first round bet was lost, so there was nothing more to gain by taking Jess out quickly, just as long as Dempsey won. Jack did not have the benefit of a rest period between rounds one and two, and the temperature was well over a hundred degrees with no breeze under the scorching sun. Dempsey was wondering if he could last 12 rounds after the enormous output of energy he expended trying to make good on Doc's foolhardy bet.

Despite all that, Dempsey actually boxed intelligently and well through the remaining two rounds. (Most would have hyperventilated and passed out after the nonstop exertion seven consecutive minutes duration in that heat.)

 

I think I was born with it, having it passed down to me from my Golden Glover grandfather.

 

Sorry if you misunderstood, Dempsey won the fight. I just thought he should have been able to put him away in the second, using the boxing rules of the time. Dempsey was always in control in the fight - from start to stoppage.

I don't think lowly of Dempsey, never have. If he slowed things down a bit after the first, it only serves to prove he had a good knowledge of the game. In other words, he knew what to do to make certain he'd be champion.

Sorry, again, if my words got misunderstood.

 

My posts often, supposedly, get edited by other forum members. Just thought I'd make a joke of it with you.

 

That's okay, I got your meaning.

If it was immediately clear at the end of round one that the bell had saved Jess, then Dempsey would not have been hustled out of the ring as he was, then made to sprint back in when Kearns realized Willard was going to continue. If he'd instead had an opportunity to sit down right away and catch his breath, while Bill Tate shaded him with the umbrella used in his corner, and got cooled off a bit with some water, then maybe he might have had the energy to dispatch Jess in round two.

Dempsey was indeed better in round three than round two, having finally enjoyed the benefit of a one minute breather from seven minutes of nonstop activity, as well as a chance to finally receive some rest period advice and encouragement from his corner. It was in round three that his hook to the body instantly lifted Big Jess completely into the air. (This was not a delayed hop, like the one Frazier did after Foreman hit him in their title match, but clearly the result of the tremendous upward force of Dempsey's awesome punching power in Toledo.) Round three was when I believe Dempsey inflicted the hurting on Willard's ribs which probably induced the retirement of Jess prior to round four.

 

Actually, what was the point of hustling Dempsey out of the ring? Off the film, Dempsey left the ring even before Willard got to his feet. After the bell rang for the fourth round and Willard conceded, Dempsey crossed the ring to shake his hand, as was traditional.

 

Kearns was trying to pull a "fast one," in an attempt to successfully collect on his "all or nothing" bet of a first round knockout. Dempsey describes the dialogue in his autobigraphy, one independently confirmed by others there at the time. Here's the account Dempsey wrote about the ending of round one:


Ollie Pecord started counting. Reaching ten, he counted Jess out. The crowd went wild; everyone was screaming. Doc was convinced that we'd just won the bet, despite Jimmy De Forest's telling him to wait a minute. Willard's being counted out didn't correspond to De Forrest's stop watch.

"There seems to be something wrong with the bell!" "Shut up! For $100,000 who the hell cares if there's something wrong with the bell! Pecord! Pecord! Raise Jack's hand! Raise his hand! He's the new champ!"

And Ollie raised my hand, grinning. I was stunned. Doc rushed up to me, threw his arms tightly around me and told me to get out of the ring. I did, as people started to climb into the ring. Jimmy told me to move faster. We were just about by the press seats when Jimmy half turned and saw that the ring was in a state of chaos. Doc, half in and half out of the ropes was frantically waving me back. Ollie had told him that the fight wasn't over, and Warren Barbour, the official timekeeper, screamed over the confusion that if I didn't get back in the ring I'd be disqualified. The bell rope had, as he called it, "fouled." No one had heard the bell; Willard had been down only seven seconds when the round ended.

So back I went. I'd been champion for less than a minute and had no idea what it felt like. All I knew was that I was once more the contender and that Doc had lost his bet.

Tex O'Rourke, an old trainer of Willard's, some time later blamed the foul-up squarely on the Marine drill team who had marched in the ring before the main event. He insisted that when the second canvas had been laid for the marchers, a workman must have put the holding rope over the bell, muffling its sound. [This explanation for the inaudible bell has been generally accepted as correct.]

Whatever the reason, I was back in that ring just in time for the second round. I had almost wrenched my shoulder punching Willard hard enough to drop him; now I was grimply determined to put him away. I couldn't even understand what Doc was yelling.



This was somewhat akin to a gridiron team rushing to snap the football quickly after a questionable ruling in favor of the offense on the previous play, so that the judgement of the officials on the field doesn't have an opportunity to be reviewed and overturned. (Once the following play is under way, the ruling of the previous one is finalized.)

Ollie Pecord counted ten over Willard at the end of round one, having failed to hear timekeeper Warren Barbour ring the famously muted bell to end round one at Pecord's count of seven, as Jess slumped down in the corner. (In the footage, you can see Willard's cornermen respond to the ringing bell, which they can see Barbour clanging from their vantage point, by bringing Jess's stool up into the corner to prepare for the next round. Willard was slumped in the corner nearest to the timekeeper's bell, and likely also heard Barbour ringing it, which would explain why he made no effort to beat Pecord's count that final time.)

As Pecord did continue his count through to completion despite Barbour's ringing of the bell, he tried rushing Ollie into formalizing the outcome by badgering him into raising Dempsey's arm, then rushing him out of the ring to preempt any reversal of Pecord's ruling. Barbour, a future United States Senator, was having none of it, and neither was Willard's camp, knowing that if Jack failed to return to the ring before the start of round two, that Jess would win on a disqualification.

Internet clips of the first round's conclusion show Pecord walking over to Dempsey tentatively and hesitantly meandering over towards Jack's corner after finishing his count, and grasp Dempsey's wrist as Kearns, coming into the ring, yells for Ollie to raise his arm. Then, there is a momentary skip in the footage which edits out that arm raising by Pecord, so the next image is of Dempsey turning away from Pecord after Ollie signaled Jack the winner to the crowd. (This arm raising is in the complete real time movie film footage of that event.)

The shaking of hands between Dempsey and Willard after Jess's between rounds retirement was not traditional, but the beginning of a new tradition, not recorded as having happened before at the conclusion of a heavyweight title change. Later, Dempsey's embrace of Gene Tunney as the new champion would also be novel conduct for a newly dethroned heavyweight champion, winning Jack tremendous admiration for his sportsmanship. (Remarkably, considering how hard Dempsey hit, Jack was the first heavyweight champion to win the title sitting down, and lose it standing up.) Dempsey's conduct at the conclusion of the title changes between himself and Willard and Tunney was a far cry from when Corbett yelled at Fitzsimmons, "That was a lucky punch! You'll have to fight me again." Fitz: "I'll never fight you again, and if you ever hit me again, I'll shoot you!"

 

Fitz and Corbett hated each other, but with others it was different. This is Gilbert Odd on the aftermath of the Jeffries-Fitz fight in 1899:
"Over in Fitzsimmons's corner it was another state of affairs. Bob's seconds were working over him vigorously and he made a quick recovery, greeting Jeffries with a smile when the new champion crossed over to shake his hand."

Be that as it may, I still find the whole end of the first round odd. If the bell saved Willard, he would still have a claim to be champion regardless of whatever mistakes the referee made and Kearns was risking disqualification. They would have had to bring Dempsey back if it was from the dressing room, if Pecord even gave him that option.
And the bet certainly seems stupid to me as Willard had never been stopped and old Gunboat Smith had managed to pull himself off the canvas enough times to drag his fight into the second round against Dempsey a few months earlier.

 

With respect it might look diferent if you see him in the flesh to on a black and white film.

 

I suspect you might see some subtlties that were not previously apparent. Imagine how amateurish Rocky Marciano would look on a 1920s vintage camera for example.