What seperates Monzon and Hagler from Hopkins

Marnoff · Aug 26, 2007

Illmatic said:

Ummm....Mayorga had an iron jaw before Tito. And Tito still knocked him out.

I checked boxrec, and it still says Leonard beat Hagler. Just b/c Hagler's been crying about it for 20 years doesnt mean that you have to as well. So, lets make that two.

atsch:rofl Barkley was better than DLH, Tito, Tarver, Wright, Johnson? :rofl

okay, he was a great fighter...a great fighter Hagler lost to.

Who? B/c Hearns won a title at 175? Well, Johnson won a CHAMPIONSHIP at 175 and he's not even in the top 3 of Hopkins best wins.

Hopkins has surpassed Hagler.
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Great post.

Bummy Davis · Aug 26, 2007

more exciting fights vs Middleweights

Smith · Aug 26, 2007

Jack said:

And Boyd, thanks, mate. Just seeing your name I remembered about that wallpaper I'd said I'd do for you. 'Cause you haven't been around, or I just haven't seen your posts, I forgot atsch I'll sort it out soon for you :good
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Cheers pal,:good,havent been around as much as id liked to have been of late due to girl problems haha, but i had to back what you said in the article, wholeheartedly how i feel as well. Appreciate it man

Jack · Aug 26, 2007

Marnoff said:

He lost to Leonard. That's all I have to say. Your post is a ****ing joke. I could also elaborate in that he barely squeaked by Duran, but there's no need. You seem to not have watched the fights, or even have checked their records, as this demonstrates.
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Yeah, okay, I don't know who won Leonard/Hagler - the biggest fight of the '80's, or didn't know how to even find out :roll: **** off, ****.

As you didn't seem to understand I was implying I thought Hagler won, dumb ****.

McLovin said:

Ok , Roy Jones , Antonio Tarver , Glen Johnson , Jermain Taylor , Winky Wright , Oscar Delahoya , Felix Trinidad , Also ran , Also ran , Also ran ! 20 middleweight title defenses with the fastest knockout in middleweight history , And a 2 division champion still going at 42 !:good
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Jones beat him, Tarver is shite, Johnson is alright, Taylor is 2-0 over him, Winky was out of shape, DLH was useless above 154lbs, Trinidad was nothing at middleweight.

McLovin said:

Hearns , Leonard , Duran , Also ran , Also ran , Also ran , Also ran , Also ran , Also ran , Also ran , 12 Title defenses and an early retirement at 32 over a fight that he's still crying about 20 years later .
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Yeah, it's pretty clear you can't be argued with Your illogical, idiotic, asinine posts are nonsense.

If you consider people like Mugabi, Hamsho, Minter, Obelmejias, Roldan, Hamani, Seales, Antuofermo and Briscoe "also rans", you prove that.

McLovin said:

There is no comparision , You can talk about who you think was better all you want but the only thing thats actually measurable is accomplishments and Hopkins has Hagler beat by a mile !
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No, the only thing that matters is resume, where Hopkins can't compete. Anyone can accomplish big things against nobodies, such as the bunch Hopkins fought. If someone like Gene Fullmer fought Z-class competition through his career, he would have more "accomplishments" than Hopkins.

McLovin said:

Just for you esb flunkie ! Leonard > Watts > Monroe > Hagler ( The middleweight Gatti that retired at 32 so he wouldn't have to suffer the same fate ) !!! :|
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Clinton Mitchell > Bernard hopkins, by that logic. Or Whitey Wenzel > Harry Greb.

The difference between me saying Jones was better, is he actually was :good

Honestly, the number of times I've defended this forum in the classic scene is unbelieveable, but as soon as it comes to fighters who have't boxed in the last 10 years, so many people in the general forum are ****ing clueless.

Illmatic · Aug 26, 2007

Mugabi----the most overrated fighter ever in the history of boxing

Jack · Aug 26, 2007

McLovin said:

Ok , Roy Jones , Antonio Tarver , Glen Johnson , Jermain Taylor , Winky Wright , Oscar Delahoya and Felix Trinidad are nobodies ? atsch You really proved me wrong !
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When did I say thy were?!

Like I said, the DLH, Winky and Tito wins weren't great, because all three struggled at that weight, he is 0-3 against jones and Taylor, leaving his best wins to be...Glen Johnson and Antonio Tarver.

So that's why he should be ranked in the top 10 at middleweight? Wins over Johnson and Tarver?

Please.

Jack · Aug 26, 2007

Illmatic said:

Mugabi----the most overrated fighter ever in the history of boxing
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Mugabi wasn't a fantastic boxer, but he was tough, and had one of the hardest punches ever, P4P. Sadly, he was ruined by Hagler, but I like him. He is underrated as a lot of people focus more on his career post Hagler.

Illmatic · Aug 26, 2007

McLovin said:

That's because he sucked ! And Hagler didn't ruin him he made him look good !
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I think sucked is too strong of a word, but I agree.

dave82 · Aug 26, 2007

Jack said:

When did I say thy were?!

Like I said, the DLH, Winky and Tito wins weren't great, because all three struggled at that weight, he is 0-3 against jones and Taylor, leaving his best wins to be...Glen Johnson and Antonio Tarver.

So that's why he should be ranked in the top 10 at middleweight? Wins over Johnson and Tarver?

Please.
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Iatsch

dave82 · Aug 26, 2007

I don't believe a whole lot separates these guys. I think its just down to preference. In order i would have Monzon Hagler and bhop. All great champs, all are ATG.

McGrain · Aug 26, 2007

Not a lot in my view.

I rate Hopkins above Hagler. On the grounds I think he would have kicked Hagler's ass.

I have Monzon above him for similair reasons.

cuchulain · Aug 26, 2007

Jack said:

I got into this debate after the Hopkins/Wright fight, when some people were, foolishly, comparing the resumes of these three fighters, so I thought I'd bring the topic back, and pick their records apart.

Obviously all three of these fighters fought a lot of elite fighters who moved up from the weleterweight division, but when you compare what they actually did at 160, it's incomparable.

Hopkins beat De La Hoya and Trinidad. These wins put him on the map in the mainstream. However, who did Tito and DLH beat themselves?

De La Hoya struggled with, and despite being a big DLH fan, probably should have lost, against Felix Sturm. right after that, DLH gets beaten by Hopkins. Big ****ing deal :roll:

Tito, again, despite being a favourite of mine, has no names on his record at 160. He looked fantastic at that weight, but it was clearly decieving. His best win was over Joppy, and he later proved his power, his main attribute, didn't carry to 160lbs against Mayorga. The other win was against the garbage Cherifi, and the other two fighters against elite opposition lasted 24 rounds and he probably won less than 5.

Winky Wright, His latest win, was flabby and out of shape at 170lbs. He, a naturally 154lber, could NOT carry the weight. He was gassed by the 9th round despite an usually low punch output.

Now, lets look at Hagler.

His three best wins are over Hearns, Leonard and Duran.

With Hearns, people always talk about him bein a natural 147lber. Nonsense. He was 154lbs at his best and carried weight very well. He DID defeat some big names at higher weights than that, and took a belt over the really good Virgil Hill at 175lbs.

People say Duran was a lightweight. Whilst true, he was also a top class fighter at the higher weights too. He beat a really tough Iran Barkley, who is better than anyone Hopkins has beaten, at 160lbs, despite being old and fat.

Leonard also won a light heavyweight belt, beating the tough Donny Lalonde in spectacular fashion. Had he oved up in weight before he was shot, he would have done a lot more at 160 or higher.

The point is, the people Hagler beat WERE good at 160lbs or higher, unlike Hopkins' light opposition.

Monzon beat Valdez, who was a class act himself, and beat other ATG middleweights.

Napoles, a welterweight, had a career much like Tito at middleweight, but was better.

Emile Grittih manages to beat Briscoe at 160, which was a really good win. Again, another Tito but better.

Benvenuti shouldn't need any justification, just look at is record. He may be better than Hopkins himself and definetly anyone Hopkins beat.

My point is, Hopkins best wins are against Tarver, Eastman and Johnson. Better than Monzon or Hagler? No chance. People get too tied up in his defences. Put me against 30 spastics, and I'd have a 30-0 record too :good

Plus he also has his losses to Jones and the lacklustre Taylor. Struggling with Mercado doesn't help either.

Hopkins is a fighter who scrapes into the top 10 at middleweight. Anything higher is overrating his resume.
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While many feel Leonard did not deserve the win over Hagler, the point is , he did get the decision. Therefore your sentence:
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is factually incorrect.

His loss to Taylor came at the age of 40. Hagler was retired at 32 and Monzon at 33. That accounts somewhat for the close losses to Taylor.

Re: Roy.

Roy would have defeated both Monzon and Hagler as well.

Hopkins has no other losses at 160.

I rate him behind Hagler and Monzon (and Jones) and SRR. That puts him 5 alltime in my book.

Can you name me five more?

MSTR · Aug 26, 2007

Monzon is pretty over rated IMO. Watching him on tape, he is pretty one dimensional, and has no where near the diversity of B Hop in the ring.

Thread Stealer · Aug 26, 2007

Hagler faced better opposition on the way up to the title than Hopkins, which is the main reason I rank him higher in middleweight history. I don't have a problem with either guy being ranked above each other, and I also think head-to-head it's a near pick-em. Both guys were excellent, versatile fighters. Hopkins was a little quicker and slicker, although Hagler was not slow and had pretty good parrying ability. Hagler had heavier hands, and was a little more proven in the area of slugging it out (with success) with big punchers than Hopkins was.

As far as Monzon goes, you watch him and he looks so ordinary. Not very fast, awkward, ugly to watch. But he got the job done time and time again. He was great at controlling the pace, distance, at being composed in the ring, and beating everyone that tried to take his title.

Even more amazing that he spent so much time in his training camps smoking cigarettes, partying, and using women as either extra sparring sessions or **** sessions instead.

dave82 · Aug 26, 2007

Erratic Behavior said:

Hagler faced better opposition on the way up to the title than Hopkins, which is the main reason I rank him higher in middleweight history. I don't have a problem with either guy being ranked above each other, and I also think head-to-head it's a near pick-em. Both guys were excellent, versatile fighters. Hopkins was a little quicker and slicker, although Hagler was not slow and had pretty good parrying ability. Hagler had heavier hands, and was a little more proven in the area of slugging it out (with success) with big punchers than Hopkins was.

As far as Monzon goes, you watch him and he looks so ordinary. Not very fast, awkward, ugly to watch. But he got the job done time and time again. He was great at controlling the pace, distance, at being composed in the ring, and beating everyone that tried to take his title.

Even more amazing that he spent so much time in his training camps smoking cigarettes, partying, and using women as either extra sparring sessions or **** sessions instead.
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:good Great post

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