What type of an athlete was John L Sullivan?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Mendoza, May 7, 2020.


  1. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    What type of an athlete was John L Sullivan?

    When it comes to lack of film or no film, I tend to give a little extra leeway to those who were good athletes as athletics does translate into boxing, to which degree can be debated.

    For example, Jim Corbett was good track and field guy and a baseball player. These sports requited speed and hand to eye coordination, and in the ring he flashes these type of boxing skill on film.

    Did Sullivan shine in other sports in a similar capacity?
     
  2. 70sFan865

    70sFan865 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I suppose he was very strong man and he was probably explosive too.
     
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  3. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    He was a member of a mixed race rowing team early on.
     
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  4. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    This helps as rowing requires some strength and stamina, which he displayed that in the ring, though it's not a sport that requires much athletics.
     
  5. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    I can did around a bit, and see if anything else turns up.
     
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  6. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    Maybe Adam Pollack can help? Sullivan by his own admission, had no real ring science, and that's by the standards of the early 1900's.

    However, if he was a good athlete in sports that need explosion, speed or fine coordinaiton, you could make a convincing argument that he was merely a product to the times in terms of technique and would have been much better with a more modern trainer.
     
  7. dmt

    dmt Hardest hitting hw ever Full Member

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    I bet he was a great drinking athlete

    In all seriousness, I imagine he was a short stocky guy with big power and slow hands. I could be wrong though.
     
  8. Thor Odinson

    Thor Odinson “U should have been banned for life”-some fangirl banned Full Member

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    I think before he won the title that he was a disciplined athlete to a degree but after that the drinking sessions became more and more frequent

    apart from the recovery camp overseen by Muldoon Sullivan was never fully in shape after beating paddy Ryan in 1882
     
  9. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    Reports suggest fast hands.
     
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  10. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    The one thing that everybody seems to have agreed about, is that he had fast hands.
     
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  11. dmt

    dmt Hardest hitting hw ever Full Member

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    Ah thanks, then he must have been a really good athlete

    Do you might have been somewhat similar to Andy Ruiz? Obviously not nearly as fat, but Ruiz has surprisingly fast hands and good power. If Ruiz slimmed down, I could see him being a real threat.

    If Sullivan had fast hands and a big punch, I could see him being a smaller version of Ruiz.
     
  12. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    The issue is, what was fast back then, and how did it compare to his predecessors? If a referee or boxing historian who saw Sullivan said, he had hands almost as fast or as fast as Jack Johnson, then we would know he had good hand speed. But such a reference eludes us.

    He wasn't close to Corbett's hand speed. How much speed Sullivan had at age 32 is unknown, but I don't see a reason why it would drastically drop off in the early rounds.

    I think he had reasonably fast hands for his time, but nothing close to Corbett, Johnson, Dempsey, however calling him slow handed would not be accurate
     
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  13. dmt

    dmt Hardest hitting hw ever Full Member

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    yeah I agree.

    Regarding losing hand speed at 32, I imagine being overweight would significantly change hand speed. If Sullivan was completely out of shape vs Corbett, I would imagine it would effect his hand speed drastically.

    I do agree that hand speed does not decline as quick as foot speed does. I mean Ali still had lightning fast hands at 32 vs Foreman but he was much slower on his feet. But Ali was in tremendous shape though.
     
  14. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    The closest we can come to quantifying his hand speed, is Joe Choynski's claim that Sullivan was as fast as he was. To give context, Joe Choynski once fought an exhibition with John L Sullivan. While Sullivan was touring Australia Choynski was interviewed by an Australian journalist and questioned about how Sullivan might have fared against Peter Jackson and Joe Goddard. On Goddard he said:

    I don’t think he would have a ghost of a show with Sullivan. You see its this way. Sullivan is quicker than I am and he hits with terrible power. If I had a tenth of Sullivan’s force Id have beaten Goddard both times I fought him. Now its easy to figure out. I honestly think that John would smash him down with little trouble”.

    You have never seen Sully fight Smiler. His right arm don’t do any swinging, it come across like a flash of lightning with a jerk, and if he misses he is so quick you can’t get your head out of range before he’s back ready for another shot at your jaw and how it does fly ping ping”.

    If we take Choynski at his word that Sullivan had faster hands than him then it is quite instructive because we have footage of Choynski sparring with Jim Jeffries:

    This content is protected
     
  15. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    I never thought to compare them before, but you might not be that far wrong!