What version of Ali can Joe Joyce beat

Dubois was green as hell, but it was a decent win. Parker was also a great KO.

I would say Shavers KOs of Bugner and Norton are pretty comparable in terms of quality of opposition.

Based on stats, this is how I see it:

Power Shavers
Chin Joyce
Hand Speed Shavers
Stamina Joyce
Accuracy Joyce
Timing Shavers
Combinations Shavers
Punch variety Shavers
Technique Joyce
Defense Shavers
Ring IQ both were cavemen

 

Earnie's best win is against a member of the International Boxing Hall of Fame.

 

The Ali who lit the Olimpic flame in Atlanta, I definitively see Joyce beating that version of Ali, maybe even comfortably:

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Ali deteriorated to such a point that quite a few fighters can be reasoned to have beaten him at his lowest ebb. The years in question, primarily 80/81, should be culled from the conversation. No point to include those. Some might also eliminate 1978 and that can be fair also. While Ali was already deteriorating as at the time, he really fell off that much more after the damage incurred in the Shavers fight.

When anyone asks, "Which version?" I take that to mean substantive version, not necessarily a specific fight version that was understated relative to full potential as at the time. Ali took Young very lightly, even bragging about his lack of conditioning going into the fight to reinforce the point.

Later in the same year, taking it more seriously, Ali did look that much better vs Norton. So sure, Joyce could be calculated to have his best chance against the Ali of the Young fight - but so too would have both Norton and Earnie Shavers imo.

Ali's poor conditioning in the Young fight was reactive to the perceived quality of the opponent at hand. I would assume Ali wouldn't be so complacent against the best version of Joe Joyce coming his way.

The Lyle fight is similar to the Young fight in some ways. Ali fart assed around for the better part of the Lyle fight but put the pedal to the metal exactly when he needed to win THAT fight against THAT particular opponent.

That's why transposing a fighter's EXACT performance against one opponent against an entirely different opponent is an exercise that remains very much in the hypothetical realm without practical adjustments allowed for IF the fantasized fight in question did actually occur in the same career time frame.

 

When you say "hate on Joyce" I know you mean in terms of his true qualities as a fighter.

I just want to say otherwise that he's one of the most likeable fighters in terms of character and personality, right up there with Usyk. It's impossible not to wish him the best for the future but damn, he's so easy to hit, unless he can somehow remedy that (unlikely) I don't see things panning out too well for him in both the short and long terms. What could be the best possible formulated defense to offset Joe's slow reaction time otherwise - perhaps opt for the cross-arm defense as second career Foreman did? I dunno.

 

The thing is though Pugguy it's not just the Young fight it's his general form starting from 1976. He was very beatable during this period and was fortunate to have some decisions go his way vs Young, Norton 3, Shavers.

The last time Ali was in really good shape was in 1974 vs Foreman. After that he was never in such great shape again and his weight would often be 220 or above which I don't think is a good weight for Ali.

You can pick mostly any of Ali's performances vs notable opponents starting from 1976 and he would be beatable for a peak Joyce IMO. Ali of the 3rd Norton fight would probably have enough left to decision Joyce, but the Ali of the Lyle, Young, Shavers, fights I could see Ali losing.

 

Regarding the Shavers fight Ali did virtually nothing for 9 or 10 rounds and Shavers was very cautious himself worried about his stamina so he paced himself and maybe a bit too much aswell as Ali was there for the taking.

Joyce wouldn't have that issue say what you want about him but for a big man he has fantastic engine he was averaging 70-80 punches a round vs Parker and even managed over 100 punches in one of the rounds.

I think Ali would have alot of trouble against a very big man who doesn't stop throwing punches and just keeps coming all night long. And unless you have Zhang type power to stop Joyce in his tracks then it's going to be a rough night. Ali no longer had his legs and liked to fight in spurts and sit on the ropes for a considerable amount of time, and he doesnt have the power to stop Joyce coming forward so I think it's a rough night for Ali as I said.

Shavers definitely has a power advantage over Joyce but he has nowhere near the chin or workrate of Joyce

 

I don't see Shavers ever losing to an ancient shopworn Chisora. Maybe a prime Chisora, but certainly not the one who gave Joyce a boxing lesson. Make any excuses you want, but that fight really exposed Joyce. Chisora himself is a C level fighter at this point and an old one at that.

Uh, no, Ali wasn't "virtually doing nothing" for 9-10 rounds. You're gonna need a refresher on that fight because you're way off.

Okay so now we're criticizing Shavers work rate when it was a brilliant improvement on how he used to fight. Although it was 2 years prior, Ali had set the record with Frazier for punches thrown at HW and emerged victorious. Joyce's caveman spamming isn't something Ali can't deal with, he beat numerous tough come forward fighters who threw a lot of punches such as Bonavena. He can draw upon these experiences and adjust to Joyce's style. Hell, given how unbelievably slow Joyce is, even 75-77 Ali's legs would probably still be viable enough to dance around him in short spurts for a few rounds or so. Ali danced in spurts against both Norton and Young during these years. He doesn't need to stop Joyce, just throw enough to score and keep him from having his way. Contrary to popular belief, Ali wasn't feather fisted. Nobody ever just walked through his punches and neither would Joyce.

 

It is a bad loss but i also think the two stoppage losses to Zhang have took quite a bit out of Joyce aswell.

Joyce does have some good wins vs Parker, Dubois, both wins have aged really well. He also has some other solid wins vs Jennings, Takam, I think you could arguably say Joyce may have better wins overall than Shavers. And he was ranked amongst the top 10 for a good few years and reached as high as number 3 I believe.

As for Shavers not losing to an older Chisora ? you may be right but Shavers does have an even worse loss to Bob Stallings let's not forget that.

I'm not way off at all i scored the fight 2 years ago the fight was very dull in the first 9 rounds and Ali only came to life in the later rounds here's my scorecard and write up of the fight.

Muhammad Ali vs Earnie Shavers

1 Ali
2 Shavers
3 Ali
4 Shavers
5 Ali
6 Shavers
7 Shavers
8 Shavers
9 Ali
10 Ali
11 Ali
12 Ali
13 Shavers
14 Shavers
15 Ali

143-142 Ali

So the first 9 rounds or so were quite dull apart from the 2nd round when Ali got badly rocked. Ali was clowning about too much and Shavers whilst i respect he was pacing himself, and that was a smart tactic and the right one considering Shavers didn't have the best stamina. But i felt he paced himself a bit too much and there was a window of opportunity in the first 9 rounds, where Shavers could of got a considerable lead as Ali didn't really do much. But Shavers was content with pacing himself and i felt he was a bit too cautious overall.

The 10th round the fight started to pick up and it become a much better fight as Ali actually started to use some footwork and started to actually fight instead of clowning around. For me the fight was dead level going into the 15th but Ali stole it with his last barrage as Shavers was on the verge of being stopped.

Overall i feel like there was 4 debatable rounds 3,7,9,12, but i can't help but think that Shavers missed a trick in first 9 rounds. He could of imposed himself alot more whilst still pacing himself. I only had Shavers leading 5-4 after 9 rounds but it could of been 6-3 or possibly even 7-2 had Shavers just let his hands go more.

My point was Shavers had bad stamina so he was forced to fight in a very controlled manner vs Ali, i'm not criticizing it as it was a smart gameplan for the normally overly aggressive Shavers who had stamina issue. The problem was though is that he too cautious worrying about pacing himself against an Ali that really didn't do much in the first 9 rounds and he could've imposed himself more in those rounds.

Just imagine Ali for example doing his clowning around and sitting on the ropes as Joyce just plods forward throwing tons of punches. Remember Ali lost to Spinks in a very similar manner who just went right at Ali with a high workrate and just clearly out worked a very lackluster Ali.

Ali between 1976-1981 pretty much went the distance in most of his notable fights and wasn't really looking impressive in any of those fights. He arguably could've had 3 losses to Young, Shavers, Norton. He lost nigh on near enough every round to Lyle as he slept walk through the fight for 10 rounds before scoring a stoppage out of nowhere in the 11th round.

The Ali of 1970 vs Bonavena is a considerably higher level than the Ali who was pretty much going through the notions between 1976-1981 and winning controversial decisions based on his name value.

As for Ali's power yes it is a bit underrated but i do not think the lackluster version of Ali could stop Joyce coming forward. Simply because Ali is just not active enough at this point in his career and he goes through large periods in fights of doing very little whilst letting his opponents wail away at him. If the likes of Shavers, Spinks, who are considerably smaller than Joyce with far lesser chins had no issues coming forward vs Ali then i don't see that Joyce would have an issue.

 

No, it’s not just the Young fight up for examination but the Young fight has been highlighted several times so it needs to be highlighted that Ali was very poorly prepared and conditioned for that fight because in Ali’s mind, he thought he could get away with it against the likes of Young.

We could take the Ali of the Mathis and first Norton fights and perhaps reason that a number of fighters could’ve also beaten those specific versions - marking them as the earliest time they might’ve been able to beat Ali - but those versions weren’t a fair representation of Ali fulfilled potentials otherwise around that time.

Against Lyle, Ali simply cruised but proved he could lift as and when required - tailoring hmself to the opponent and fight complexion at hand.

I’m certainly not resting my case on the scorecards as they can be dubious and challenged (see the 3rd Norton fight), but just FWIW, thru 10 rounds against Lyle, 1 judge had Ali trailing by just 1 point and another judge had the fight even. The 3rd judge however had Lyle leading by 6 points.

Re Jimmy Young, he was beating several top names and giving others hell - including Norton but I do believe that Ken beat Young, albeit a close fight.

At any rate, during his run Young was a very good fight but I personally don’t believe that Young beat Ali (the head thru the ropes tactic was appalling) nor do I believe that Shavers beat Ali but I do think that the Shavers fight in itself fight caused an even more notable decline in Ali.

Again, FWIW, Shavers also said that he believed Ali won their fight - but I understand such quotes only carry so much value. If one believes Earnie won they most certainly can reject Shaver’s own testimony.

I do believe that Norton clearly beat Ali in their rubber match but Norton was a very good fighter also at any rate and always a stylistic nightmare for Ali.

As to Ali being beatable, up to and including the Shavers fight, he wasn’t actually beaten except for the Norton fight imo - and let’s not forget that a 2 years older Norton also gave a prime/near prime Holmes absolute hell.

Re the Dubois fight. Dubois was leading Joyce on the scorecards of 2 judges when he basically quit.

I think Dubois is that much better a fighter now and certainly carries greater resolve to win. Joyce’s fight against a less than best Parker was also close as at the KO/stoppage.

Joyce upheld a great chin for a time but Joe has always been awfully slow and frighteningly easy to hit therefore I don’t necessarily see him as being necessarily likely to beat Ali up to and including the Shavers fight.

 

I am referring to the Prime Shavers who fought Ali. That's the only one relevant in this thread, not the one struggling with guys like Bob Stallings. That version of Shavers is absolutely not losing to a 40 something has-been Chisora.

Joyce had a whopping 15 fights when he lost to Zhang. You're telling me those losses completely derailed his career and ruined him when Shavers had all kinds of grueling wars with guys like Lyle, Williams, Clark, and Quarry, yet kept on fighting and even improving after these matches? This is just excuses for a soft era.

No, I disagree on Joyce's wins being superior. Again, Dubois was pretty green and what he's doing now has nothing to do with how good he was when Joyce beat him. Dubois had beaten mostly nobodies or D level/European level opponents prior to that loss. A win over #1 contender Ken Norton, who had a vastly superior resume, is objectively better than beating a green Dubois with a thin resume.

Parker was a good win and he was on a decent winning streak, but had been going life and death with Chisora and his 2nd best win might be been Fa. Maybe you could argue beating Parker is above Bugner, but it think the two are pretty comparable. Shavers also has decent wins over guys like Ellis, Clark, Young, Williams, etc. You seem to forget how incredibly short Joyce's career has been, and he has absolutely not lived up to the hype as this supposed invincible modern SHW juggernaut.

We can have a different thread for Ali vs shavers since that's such a popular debate, but if his opponent isn't opening up as much to your liking, how is that Ali's fault? He's the outside fighter who lied to stick and move, why would he become busier and potentially leave himself open against a dangerous puncher if he's enjoying the lead? That makes no sense. And if Joyce were smart, and he isn't, he wouldn't just recklessly spam punches every minute or Ali would figure out his rhythm and counter him all night. None of this is proof Ali couldn't keep up with Joyce's pace, just so you know.

I didn't say he would stop Joyce, I said he hits hard enough even in the late 70's to get Joyce's respect. Again, no one ever just walked through Ali's punches, not even the cement chinned Chuvalo could do that lol.

You keep waving off the Lyle turnaround KO ignoring that Lyle was a pretty rough dude and Ali essentially ended the fight with a single right hand to the jaw that turned Lyle's legs to jelly. You can see just how badly he was hurt by the punch and that the ropes kept him from falling. If Ali throws some of those every round to get Joyce to respect him, and Joyce chooses to just mindlessly walk forward, even he is getting rocked. Remember when a 41 year old, mediocre punching Chisora dropped the much bigger Joyce with one punch? I sure do.

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Not sure why you're convinced Ali's punches are just bouncing off Joyce or that Ali would just taunt and cover up the whole night while getting nailed continuously. Sure, if he shows up like he did with zero gumption or initiative against Spinx, he loses. What happened in the rematch...?

 

He wasn't in good shape for pretty much most of his fights between 1976-1981 his weight keep fluctuating to 220 pounds and above which is not a good weight for Ali.

But Pugguy the example you are giving is not the same Ali's overall form between 1976-1981 wasn't good he was lackluster in pretty much most of his notable fights during that time.

But i don't see that as a positive though against a guy like Joyce who has very good workrate. The fact is in most of Ali's fights during this time he'd go long periods in fights not doing a whole lot and some of the close decisions he won was based on his name value as i said.

I scored Young vs Ali a draw based on the point deduction but i do think Young has a stronger case to winning the fight rather the other way around.

The Shavers fight for me just shows how far Ali had declined that he was in a razor thin close fight vs a limited slugger like Shavers. A prime Ali wouldn't lose a single round to Shavers lets be honest and it would look exactly Holmes vs Shavers 1.

Yes but let's be honest Pugguy Ali was not convincing in any of his notable fights during that period and as i said he had some very favourable scoring due to his name value.

The Norton fight i can overlook as Norton was still a good fighter and a stylistic nightmare for Ali. But again i don't think Ali won the fight so how much value do i put into a fight in which i think Ali clearly lost ?

Dubois had a serious eye injury though Pugguy so i think some context is needed there.

I'm not saying i make Joyce a favourite necessarily my point is though is that Ali between 1976-1981 was very beatable and i think Joyce would have a chance during that time frame.

 

People seem pretty sure about Shavers punching harder than top level modern heavyweights.

The average heavyweight today is 230+ pounds it's not the same as your power being effective against 200 pounders.

 

How did you score Ali Young?