What was the character of Jim Jefferies?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Tockah, Jan 21, 2023.

  1. Pugguy

    Pugguy Boxing Addict Full Member

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    :eusa_doh:

    His apparent personal dislike of Johnson knows no bounds.

    I think you need to put him straight Mc, if you haven't already. :D Then again, probably not worth it. He's a closed system - doesn't take anything on board.
     
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  2. Saintpat

    Saintpat Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Who cares what someone posts on another forum? Seems rather obsessive to report on it here.
     
  3. mcvey

    mcvey Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I should probably have posted it via PM ,though I don't think and hope it hasn't impacted on anyone's enjoyment of the thread? If it did on yours ,my apologies.
    Hope I added something to this thread?
    I'm hazarding a guess my posts are enjoyed as least as much as ones about boxers who had surnames the same as vegetables or cheeses? But perhaps not?
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2023
  4. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    I largely agree with you here. Especially if we measure the situation from a century later where at least the pretence of improving social equality has been in existence all of our living memory. Thankfully We now know better. There was no pretence of equality back then. Jack Johnson was a very brave man. Yet regarding Jeffries stance toward him, can we forgive the generations who knew no better?

    I think ex champion John L Sullivan showed some class publicly congratulating Johnson in beating Jeffries when The best man won. Especially when the result was not what much of the boxing elite really wanted.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2023
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  5. Pugguy

    Pugguy Boxing Addict Full Member

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    An interesting thing is that before you read more deeply into the subject/era, you might've guessed that Jeffries' had complete support in his drawing of the color line - but the fact was, he didn't. While the majority might've been okay with it, there were many that weren't, and they carried the view that Jeffries was "hiding" behind the color line. Of course, about 3 1/2 years after Jeffries' retirement, a white Champion Burns, of the same generation as Jeff, finally gave Johnson his long overdue due chance at the crown. Not to exonerate John L for his racist views/actions otherwise, but that photo of him shaking hands with Jack Johnson wow'd me the first time I saw it and, to a degree, still does - and you're right, quite the deal for him to have least shaken Johnson's hand in public - and terrific that we have a photograph to uphold it.
     
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  6. mcvey

    mcvey Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Just refreshing my ancient memory.Graeme Kent,in his book The Great White Hopes ,says that the rumours of a fix with Johnson agreeing to take a dive probably originated from promoter Jim Coffroth,annoyed that Rickard had beaten his purse bid for the fight. Kent says Rickard originally intended to stage the fight in San Francisco,but Coffroth's influence in that city got that site vetoed.The story going around was that Johnson would lay down Jeffries would become champ again,then promptly retire leaving Johnson free to mop up the remaining White Hopes.
    The rumours became so insistent that the Governor of California,James N Gillet got so fed up with the whole affair that he pulled the plug on it,and the fight ended up in Reno Nevada.
     
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  7. Journeyman92

    Journeyman92 El Radar Dios los bendiga Full Member

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    Neat?
     
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  8. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Mendoza can do what he likes on Boxing Scene. Let's not let the horrendous mistake i made in bringing him back spoil any more threads.
     
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  9. mcvey

    mcvey Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Yes, I should have made my response private.Apologies to all.
     
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  10. janitor

    janitor Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I will give it a try.
     
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  11. Pugguy

    Pugguy Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Thanks Mc, great details, I appreciate that.

    That’s rounds it off nicely as to who and why re the circulation of the rumour - which had no truth behind it.

    Gunboat Smith put his own twist on it.

    He though he implied the fix was in (without providing any finer detail in support) he claimed the Governor’s wife didn’t like all the attention Johnson was getting in San Fran, so much attention that a crowd that would normally gather around them (the governor and his wife) when they walked down the street were notably missing - instead they were paying more attention to Johnson who was nearby.

    The Gunner claimed the wife would not have it and made her husband forbid the fight in Cal.

    How good would it have been to have talked to one of those old fighters as Heller did? The Gunner lived to a good age - 87. Tough as old boots.
     
  12. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    All good here mate, not a problem in the world.
     
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  13. Seamus

    Seamus Proud Kulak Full Member

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    He spoke fearlessly and compassionately for the trans folks of his day, going so far as to announcing his preferred pronouns before the Monroe fight. He wore a rainbow sash against Jackson in Woodward's Pavilion. A trailblazer according to many.
     
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  14. Pugguy

    Pugguy Boxing Addict Full Member

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    This wasn’t mentioned in Adam Pollack’s In The Ring With James J Jeffries.

    Perhaps I was too hasty in giving him credit for his meticulous research and inclusion of all relevant facts.

    I hope Adam rectifies this glaring omission in any revised editions that might be published going forward.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2023 at 1:45 AM
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  15. Pugguy

    Pugguy Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Thanks to Internet Archive I finally have the chance to read Jack Johnson My Life and Battles which I’ve started in on.

    Background: It was originally published as a series of articles in 1911 and revised into book form in 1914.

    I skipped forward to an excerpt that I’ve read semi- quoted before but hadn’t yet read directly myself.

    It relates to the story of Jeffries inviting Johnson to fight in a saloon cellar.

    Johnson prefaces that, like Burns, Jeffries had spread rumours to portray Johnson as a coward. Johnson adds that these rumours were later published in Jeffries memoirs, written by Bob Edgren.

    Johnson then quotes an excerpt of the cellar fight story from Jeffries’ memoirs.

    The oft quoted “I ain’t no cellar fighter” attributed to Johnson were Jeffries’ words, not Jack’s - but Jack did quote those words in his own book which could lend to confusion as to who actually said it or claimed Jack to have said it.

    Strangely, while framing and clearly implying it to be a contrived story on Jeffries’ part, for some reason, Johnson doesn’t go so far as to flatly refute it - which, of course, doesn’t default it to being true in anyway - but still strange Jack didn’t squash it more emphatically.

    Now, when quoting his book, I’ve said “Johnson said….” BUT the book is obviously ghost written. Earlier in the book, Johnson acknowledges (apparently since it’s ghost written) his being knocked down by Langford - with him only barely rising to beat the count. Overall he described it as a stiff fight. But he also refers to Sam as the little N-word.

    As per all objective, primary accounts otherwise, Jack wasn’t KD’d by Sam at all and had a relatively easy time of it vs The Boston Terror. And while Johnson might’ve used the N word on occasion himself- it doesn’t quite read as his own words describing Sam as such in his book.

    Johnson was a strange one. I believe he often included myths, even if to his own discredit, to make his stories juicer. The man is nothing if not one of the most enigmatic and compelling subjects in boxing.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2023 at 5:28 PM
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