What was the character of John L Sullivan?

He drew the color line and emphatically stated he wouldn't fight black boxers. The guy was very confident and outspoken but backed it up (at least he did against white boxers). He loved to hang out and drink and pressured people around him to enjoy drinks with him refusing to take no for an answer. By all accounts he was hugely popular with his fans and was one of the earliest big sports celebrities.

 

I tend to think pro athletes, of any era, don't actually give a **** about race because they respect their fellow athletes. Even when one gets made the "white" hope, they personally seem to hate it. Jeffries gave Johnson his due after the fight. Schmeling was no fan of Nazi ****, ended up good friends with Louis. Cooney wasn't personally into it, ended up good friends with Holmes.

I don't really know why Sullivan would be much different. I'm sure he respected the men who set foot in the ring. He may have had to make a statement or two during his time to satiate some, but I'd be surprised if he really believed in it deep down.

 

While I don't agree with, or respect, Sullivan's color line stance or incidents of domestic violence, in totality, I have a lot of respect for the man and what he accomplished in and out of the ring, including giving up his life long addiction to alcohol, which also contributed to some of his other problems. John L. was human, a product of the times he lived in, and he had his flaws, but I think, overall, his character was pretty good for a 19th century fighter.

 

Sullivan's character?

Nice enough man when he was sober, absolute aresehole when he was drunk.

Bit of a larger than life personality, not above acts of generosity.

Much more intelligent than is popularly assumed, and capable of being quite eloquent at times.

His stance on the color line was somewhat inconsistent, and I have devoted a thread to this subject.

 

Sullivan gave an interview in 1905, which I think answers this question.

“Mr John L Sullivan has been indulging in reminiscences of the ring. Incidentally he gives his views on the ‘negro question’ in its relation to ‘fighting’.

‘A white man’, he says in his picturesque style, ‘has nothing to gain by swapping punches with a negro. I have twice been almost goaded into meeting the coloured brother. But I took a second think in time. A club in San Francisco hung up a fortune for me to meet Peter Jackson - there was $20,000 in it, and nobody ever questioned my ability to win it - but I ducked. I was insulted from one end of the country to the other in the attempt to stampede me into that fight, and I was angry enough at one time to throw principle to the wind and give Jackson his. Another time I almost came to a set-to with George Godfrey, but I am glad to say I didn’t.

When I go out to battle with a man I agree that he is of equal standing. A negro is not the equal of a white man, and it is no kindness to the negro to let him think so. Fights between negroes are all right, but the line should be drawn there. I want every negro to do well, and my opposition to seeing white boxers meet coloured boxers is not based on any petty feeling. But for a white man to meet a negro as an equal doesn’t pull the negro up to the white man’s level, but rather pulls the blonde down to the brunette.’ ”

 

Sullivan was America's first athletic celebrity ... he was larger than life in and out of the ring ..he was a man of his age, very much so ... big on division between races, accepting the color line ... as far as a person you'd have to separate him drunk and sober ... sober he seemed kind enough but he was a drop dead drunk and a nasty hell raiser under the influence ..

 

Wow. Thanks Simon. The quote you have provided is right on point and more than defining. Tbh, when I first saw the photo of John L shaking hands with Jack Johnson I was very surprised (knowing John L’s opinions). Not to exonerate or defend Sullivan at all, since he did “walk” the colour line, but I wonder how many others talked more of a talk than they actually walked?

 

John L also gave lectures on the “Evils of John Barleycorn” (alcohol) - he was an expert on the subject after all. We might call him a philanthropist - but an incomplete one if he still held his core racist attitudes.

 

When you take into account how publicly complimentary Sullivan was of elite black fighters like Gans, Dixon and Johnson, trying to piece together the type of man he was becomes all the more confusing. George Dixon even went as far as to claim that Sullivan was his only real friend on his death bed.

Obviously people aren't black and white, but Sullivan was greyer than most.

 

On top of what I have said previously, he was complicated.

If you view him as a straight up hero or villain, on any issue including the color line, then you will not be doing him justice.

 

Sullivan’s character, or what we can piece together of it, is intriguing to say the least - and in some ways, seemingly self contradicting.

This is crazy but I’ve known people who talk a well considered PC game but in their life practices otherwise, they behave in somewhat racist fashion.

Conversely, I’ve known people who can come across verbally as somewhat racist - still not good. However, those same people are totally non racist in their behaviours otherwise.

So again, not good but some racist talk is often just that, just talk and lip service - perhaps a habitually learned and ingrained but relatively superficial habit that doesn’t go much, if at all, deeper than that.

You should read the section on Gunboat Smith in Peter Heller’s book IN THIS CORNER.

The Gunner could talk a racist game with the best of them…every second word was the N word, including references to Jack Johnson.

By the same token, Smith had hung out with Jack, drinking/partying and counted him as a close friend at one point.

As Smith tells it, they only fell out later due to Johnson becoming too big for his boots - as the Gunner described it. Nothing else to it.

 

This fight predates the existence of Sullivans lineage there was no title to draw a color line for. The color line in boxing was not a solid thing due to the sports international nature it couldn't be. Some top white fighters fought top black fighters, others didn't. Sullivan didn't and looking at the CVs of the top black HWs of the 1880s almost all the white HWs who did weren't American. Choynski, Kilrain, Jack Fallon and Ahston seem to be the main exceptions and Kilrain and Ashton only fought Godfrey.

For several years Peter Jackson was considered the rightful champ by much of the world winning not just the colored title but virtually every formal title in existence at the time. Sullivan didn't fight Jackson but he also didn't fight anyone that entire period(gloved) Would Sullivan have fought Jackson if Jackson had beaten Corbett and had universial recognition? Jeffries despite his rhetoric had fought black fighters before becoming undisputed HW champ and had a heel turn of sorts. Sullivan did no such thing.

Personality wise Sullivan reminds me of Tyson Fury if he was a foot shorter.

 

He bounced back and forth on fighting black fighters as noted in Pollack's book. His biggest issue at the time Peter Jackson came along was injuries and illness having survived two comas, one from alcohol and another from some long illness, and a badly healed broken arm... and the effects of sustained heavy drinking.